Discussion:
Let's Kill Hitler review with Spoilers
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China Blue Corn Chips
2011-09-28 07:02:27 UTC
Permalink
Earthquakes, floods, famine, disease, illness, old age, entropy - yeah,
thanks, God, you're a real swell guy. Thanks for giving us the "free
will"
to do absolutely fuck all about any of his groovy little rules...
Earthquakes don't kill people,
This statement - and everything below - is just arrant nonsense!
Call me when you return to reality.
--
Celle est une langue. | With the nutty taste of wild hickory nuts.
C'est francais /|\ I'm whoever you want me to be.
et tres, tres sexuel. \|/ Annoying Usenet one post at a time.
- China Azul | At least I can stay in character.
Andy Leighton
2011-09-28 07:40:48 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 22:00:30 +0000 (UTC),
Aus Democrats = USA Democrats = Canadian Liberals = UK LibDems
Nope. There are no major liberal parties in Australia* and the USA
(if you are of the opinion that membership, observer status, or close
ties, with Liberal International is what clearly indicates a liberal
party).

OK there is a Australian Liberal Party and Liberal Democratic Party
but they ain't liberals. One is conservative and one libertarian.
--
Andy Leighton => ***@azaal.plus.com
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_
The Doctor
2011-09-28 12:21:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Leighton
On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 22:00:30 +0000 (UTC),
Aus Democrats = USA Democrats = Canadian Liberals = UK LibDems
Nope. There are no major liberal parties in Australia* and the USA
(if you are of the opinion that membership, observer status, or close
ties, with Liberal International is what clearly indicates a liberal
party).
OK there is a Australian Liberal Party and Liberal Democratic Party
but they ain't liberals. One is conservative and one libertarian.
Australian Democrats are LI but they are Republican therefore
I cannot endorse them.
--
Member - Liberal International This is ***@nl2k.ab.ca Ici ***@nl2k.ab.ca
God, Queen and country! Never Satan President Republic! Beware AntiChrist rising!
https://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k
Ontario, Nfld, and Manitoba boot the extremists out and vote Liberal!
Andy Leighton
2011-09-28 14:56:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Doctor
Post by Andy Leighton
On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 22:00:30 +0000 (UTC),
Aus Democrats = USA Democrats = Canadian Liberals = UK LibDems
Nope. There are no major liberal parties in Australia* and the USA
(if you are of the opinion that membership, observer status, or close
ties, with Liberal International is what clearly indicates a liberal
party).
OK there is a Australian Liberal Party and Liberal Democratic Party
but they ain't liberals. One is conservative and one libertarian.
Australian Democrats are LI but they are Republican therefore
I cannot endorse them.
Read what I wrote. I said major liberal parties. The Australian
Democrats aren't a force anymore. They haven't got anyone in either
house. In the most recent elections they attracted just 0.6% of the
vote.
--
Andy Leighton => ***@azaal.plus.com
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_
James Kuyper
2011-09-28 11:19:07 UTC
Permalink
On 09/27/2011 10:57 PM, Dragon Lady wrote:
...
It's not a matter of choice. It a matter of common sense. Or perhaps you
believe as below, that God forgives those who don't repent? Because it's
pretty clear Hitler never did.
If you believe that repentance only counts if the penitent explicitly
confesses to someone, such as a priest, you're probably right.

However, if repentance alone is sufficient, whether or not it is ever
witnessed by anybody, then you have no way of being certain of that. It
could very well be that the very last thoughts that passed through
Hitler's brain were a full awareness of the evil he'd committed, and
sincere repentance for those acts. I will grant you, that's extremely
unlikely, but in this world only Hitler could ever have known for sure
whether that had happened, and he's no longer available to testify. If
your beliefs were correct, then God would know, and possibly many others
in Heaven (or Hell), but no one in this world could be justifiably
certain about it. Why are you certain?
--
James Kuyper
James Kuyper
2011-09-28 11:38:13 UTC
Permalink
...
In April 2011, Wellington Oliveira exercised his God-given freewill, and
used it to wander around his former elementary school. With 2 pistols.
Which he then used to shoot dead 10 girls and 2 boys.
God gave Wellington the right to choose to do this, right? And God also
felt it would be best to let him get on with it.
...
And guess what: you DON'T get to blame your choices on God, because YOU
made them.
A maker of defective goods is responsible for the consequences of those
defects. Being capable of making evil choices constitutes a defect; it
doesn't become any less of defect by being given a pretty name like
"free will". In the real world, possessing that defect is an unavoidable
consequence of possessing sufficient sentience to be able to make any
choices at all. However, an omnipotent God is, by definition of
omnipotence, capable of avoiding that problem.

If you're correct, God chose to make Wellington Oliveira in such a way
that he was capable of choosing to commit murder. As such, God is fully
responsible for the consequences of His choice, just as Wellington was
fully responsible for his choice. That makes them BOTH fully responsible
for every choice Wellington made, good or bad; sharing responsibility
does not diminish it.
--
James Kuyper
China Blue Corn Chips
2011-09-28 13:17:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Kuyper
A maker of defective goods is responsible for the consequences of those
defects. Being capable of making evil choices constitutes a defect; it
You're assuming it is defect. Gasoline can burn human flesh, but that is hardly
a defect.

A product is not defective just because it is dangerous. Some products must be
dangerous to fulfill the function they are sold for. The consumer must be given
adequate warnings; after that it becomes the responsibility of the consumer and
the wider society.
Post by James Kuyper
choices at all. However, an omnipotent God is, by definition of
omnipotence, capable of avoiding that problem.
One of the ways our genus evolved away from other primates is that we became
much more cooperative and empathetic. This evolution started before our genus
could speak or developped its current intelligence. In our species's natural
state we are nonviolent to each other and tolerant. We can even be empathetic to
prey animals.

Only a small fraction appear to be born otherwise (about 1/400). We could choose
to identify them and control them; instead we choose to let them run countries,
create armies and wars, run businesses. From those positions they can damage
other people to propagate violence.

It sounds to me like this god solved that problem. People choose to bypass the
solution provided.
Post by James Kuyper
If you're correct, God chose to make Wellington Oliveira in such a way
that he was capable of choosing to commit murder. As such, God is fully
Actually it sounds like he was abused while in school, damaging him. That left
him vunerable to people using Islam as an excuse to violence. We could choose to
run schools without bullying, but we don't.

You can argue that an omnipotent god can eliminate the ability to make choices
or to always step in and undo the consequences of bad decisions, but I don't see
how you can do and still talk about free will. Perhaps you can explain it.
--
Celle est une langue. | With the nutty taste of wild hickory nuts.
C'est francais /|\ I'm whoever you want me to be.
et tres, tres sexuel. \|/ Annoying Usenet one post at a time.
- China Azul | At least I can stay in character.
James Kuyper
2011-09-28 11:42:47 UTC
Permalink
On 09/28/2011 12:59 AM, China Blue Corn Chips wrote:
...
... The US Atlantic coast had a devastating earthquake that
would hardly have been noticed on the Pacific coast.
I grew up in California, and I personally felt that earthquake. It was
more than strong enough to be noticed by Californians. In fact, I was
amazed to see that it caused as little damage as it did.
--
James Kuyper
The Doctor
2011-09-28 12:13:40 UTC
Permalink
Aus Liberals are US Republicans are Canadian Conservatives.
Agreed.
=3D=3D=3D
=3D DUG.
=3D=3D=3D
You were saying about me not knowing aus politics .
--
Member - Liberal International This is ***@nl2k.ab.ca Ici ***@nl2k.ab.ca
God, Queen and country! Never Satan President Republic! Beware AntiChrist rising!
https://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k
Ontario, Nfld, and Manitoba boot the extremists out and vote Liberal!
The Doctor
2011-09-28 12:14:15 UTC
Permalink
...
2 Canadian Jews came up with Superman.
Joe Shuster, jewish born in Toronto, Ontario.
Jerry" Siegel, jewish, born in Cleveland, Ohio.
An American jew and a Canadian jew came up with Superman.
Or to be more precise, an American Jewish writer came up with the
character
of Superman and a Canadian Jewish artist came up with the design
(which
was
modelled on a cross between Shuster himself and Harold Lloyd).
Sounds accurate.
--
Shame you never are...
Cracked the mirror again this morning john smith?
I think he's too busy net-stalking you to look in the mirror.
I thought that was you? You have a much higher reply-to-Yads ratio than I
do! ;-)
I'm replying to him. I'm not insulting him, nor am I the one acting like an
ass.
Besides, I don't have a reflection, so mirrors are useless to me....
What are you? A vampire in disguise?
A fake, is what he is.
I mean really, John Smith? That's like being John Doe.
Exactly!! Recall there was a Labour Leader named John smith.
There was also a UNIT advisor named John Smith. Didn't he disappear on the way
back from Loch Ness?
And then did make appearances every now and then.
--
Member - Liberal International This is ***@nl2k.ab.ca Ici ***@nl2k.ab.ca
God, Queen and country! Never Satan President Republic! Beware AntiChrist rising!
https://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k
Ontario, Nfld, and Manitoba boot the extremists out and vote Liberal!
The Doctor
2011-09-28 12:15:54 UTC
Permalink
Besides, I don't have a reflection, so mirrors are useless to me....
What are you? A vampire in disguise?
A fake, is what he is.
I mean really, John Smith? That's like being John Doe.
Exactly!! Recall there was a Labour Leader named John smith.
Yeah, but that's in England. I'm in the US. To my knowledge, we don't have
a Labour party.
John Smith was a scots.
Do you really think we distinguish between one end of the island and the other?
The whole island could be tucked away in Nevada and California.
Except that Scotland gets winters.
--
Member - Liberal International This is ***@nl2k.ab.ca Ici ***@nl2k.ab.ca
God, Queen and country! Never Satan President Republic! Beware AntiChrist rising!
https://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k
Ontario, Nfld, and Manitoba boot the extremists out and vote Liberal!
The Doctor
2011-09-28 12:16:29 UTC
Permalink
I am paraphrasing Proverbs.
Proverbs is old testament. Are you Christian or Jewish?
Judeo-Christian. You cannot have a New Testament without the Old
Testament.
Well, yeah, but which one are you supposed to follow? The Old Testament
fire and brimstone? Or the New Testament, which is repentance, love and
forgiveness?
The Old Testament is about the relation between a god and people, and it's about
the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses is irrelevant to gentile christians. The
relationship remains relevant.
You're stuck in a game where you don't make the rules.
But believe the game is played for your benefit.
--
Celle est une langue. | With the nutty taste of wild hickory nuts.
C'est francais /|\ I'm whoever you want me to be.
et tres, tres sexuel. \|/ Annoying Usenet one post at a time.
- China Azul | At least I can stay in character.
Hence then are you saying ingore the 10 commandments?
--
Member - Liberal International This is ***@nl2k.ab.ca Ici ***@nl2k.ab.ca
God, Queen and country! Never Satan President Republic! Beware AntiChrist rising!
https://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k
Ontario, Nfld, and Manitoba boot the extremists out and vote Liberal!
The Doctor
2011-09-28 12:17:46 UTC
Permalink
Free will and Thy will be done.
Free will also means being free to not do His will.
PAradox.
Not really. Like anything else, it's a choice. God gave us that
choice
because being able to make choices is necessary to growth.
You might think you are rebelling but you are doing God's will.
I'm afraid I don't believe that. It completely contradicts the
concept
of
free will. Omniscience does not mean God wants us to act like idiots,
it
means he knows we will.
God wants us to decide based on free will.
rebellion. It can not be doing God's will, even if it is doing what God
expects.
You got the idea.
Doc, you do realize that contradicting yourself is counterproductive to
whatever you're trying to do?
PAradoxes are such.
It's not a paradox when you contradict yourself. You're either lying,
trolling, or you changed your mind based on new evidence and are hoping
noone will notice.
I am no john smith.

As I said You are doing God's will even if you are rebelling against God.

Cases and point : The Illuminati , the occult and the Freemasons.
--
Member - Liberal International This is ***@nl2k.ab.ca Ici ***@nl2k.ab.ca
God, Queen and country! Never Satan President Republic! Beware AntiChrist rising!
https://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k
Ontario, Nfld, and Manitoba boot the extremists out and vote Liberal!
The Doctor
2011-09-28 12:18:27 UTC
Permalink
Besides, I don't have a reflection, so mirrors are useless to me....
What are you? A vampire in disguise?
A fake, is what he is.
I mean really, John Smith? That's like being John Doe.
Exactly!! Recall there was a Labour Leader named John smith.
Yeah, but that's in England. I'm in the US. To my knowledge, we don't
have
a Labour party.
We have a labour party in Australia.
I may be wrong, but I've equated your Democrat Party with it.
If they're the liberal side of the coin, then yeah, they're the equivilant
of our Democrats. Me, I'm to liberal for the Republicans and to
conservative for the Democrates, so I'm registered as an independent and I
think they're all idiots.
I'm threatening to start my own party, and call it the "Middle of the Road
Party".
I don't know why I am continuing to read this thread, as ITSM that it has
nothing to do with Dr. Who
However, to add my 2 cents to the discussion, an Australian posted
"Question for God - who created you?"
I think *God just exists" is as plausible as *the Universe just exists
without God*.
That kind of depends on your own experience. :P
Aus Labours == US Socialists.
--
Member - Liberal International This is ***@nl2k.ab.ca Ici ***@nl2k.ab.ca
God, Queen and country! Never Satan President Republic! Beware AntiChrist rising!
https://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k
Ontario, Nfld, and Manitoba boot the extremists out and vote Liberal!
The Doctor
2011-09-28 12:19:03 UTC
Permalink
In article
In article
.com>,
Aus Labour PArty =3D3D US Socialists.
Aus Democrats =3D3D USA Democrats =3D3D Canadian Liberals =3D3D UK
Lib=
Dems
Australian Labor Party =3D3D US Democrats.
Australian Greens =3D3D US Socialists.
Australian Democrats =3D3D Ralph Nader.
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D
=3D3D DUG.
=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D
NOPE!! =A0
Aus Greens =3D US Greens.
Nope. The Greens have environmental and social issues. In fact they
refused to back one party at an election when they offered money for
the environment when the money came from increasing flat taxes.
Do you know anything about Australian politics or are you guessing?
=3D=3D=3D
=3D DUG.
=3D=3D=3D
Aus Liberals are US Republicans are Canadian Conservatives.
That makes absolutely no sense at all, Doc.
Look up International Democratic Union.
--
Member - Liberal International This is ***@nl2k.ab.ca Ici ***@nl2k.ab.ca
God, Queen and country! Never Satan President Republic! Beware AntiChrist rising!
https://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k
Ontario, Nfld, and Manitoba boot the extremists out and vote Liberal!
The Doctor
2011-09-28 12:19:34 UTC
Permalink
Aus Liberals are US Republicans are Canadian Conservatives.
Agreed.
Australian liberals are US Republicans are Canadian Conservatives? How does
that work, to make a liberal equal a concervative????
Because the Aus Liberals are members of the IDU.
--
Member - Liberal International This is ***@nl2k.ab.ca Ici ***@nl2k.ab.ca
God, Queen and country! Never Satan President Republic! Beware AntiChrist rising!
https://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k
Ontario, Nfld, and Manitoba boot the extremists out and vote Liberal!
The Doctor
2011-09-28 12:20:11 UTC
Permalink
Free will also means being free to not do His will.
PAradox.
Not really. Like anything else, it's a choice. God gave us that
choice because being able to make choices is necessary to growth.
You might think you are rebelling but you are doing God's will.
I'm afraid I don't believe that. It completely contradicts the
concept of free will. Omniscience does not mean God wants us to
act like idiots, it means he knows we will.
There's no conflict between a belief in an omniscient and omnipotent God
and free will. The space-time continuum was created for our benefit.
God is outside the universe possibly glancing at it at different points.
Did I say there was?
Did I say you did?
I wasn't actually sure if you were agreeing with me or not. :P I think you
got a little too existential for me.
Thomas Aquinas came up with it, plus plenty of science fiction writers.
I didn't feel like following up to Yads, so I piggybacked.
Whatever works for you.
--
Member - Liberal International This is ***@nl2k.ab.ca Ici ***@nl2k.ab.ca
God, Queen and country! Never Satan President Republic! Beware AntiChrist rising!
https://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k
Ontario, Nfld, and Manitoba boot the extremists out and vote Liberal!
The Doctor
2011-09-28 12:20:54 UTC
Permalink
Free will also means being free to not do His will.
PAradox.
Not really. Like anything else, it's a choice. God gave us that
choice
because being able to make choices is necessary to growth.
You might think you are rebelling but you are doing God's will.
I'm afraid I don't believe that. It completely contradicts the concept
of
free will. Omniscience does not mean God wants us to act like idiots,
it
means he knows we will.
There's no conflict between a belief in an omniscient and omnipotent God
and free will. The space-time continuum was created for our benefit.
God is outside the universe possibly glancing at it at different points.
Did I say there was?
Did I say you did?
I wasn't actually sure if you were agreeing with me or not. :P I think
you got a little too existential for me.
Perhaps that's your problem: you've just never read any books on
Existentialism...?
Neo-atheism. PLEASE!
--
Member - Liberal International This is ***@nl2k.ab.ca Ici ***@nl2k.ab.ca
God, Queen and country! Never Satan President Republic! Beware AntiChrist rising!
https://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k
Ontario, Nfld, and Manitoba boot the extremists out and vote Liberal!
Adam H. Kerman
2011-09-28 15:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Earthquakes, floods, famine, disease, illness, old age, entropy - yeah,
thanks, God, you're a real swell guy. Thanks for giving us the "free will"
to do absolutely fuck all about any of his groovy little rules...
Dude:

Floods are gawd's way of saying, I put a river here. Don't live here!
Don't keep moving back after the river recedes, because it's just
going to flood again.

Famine is all too often an artificial event. Some famished parts of the
world were once productive agriculturally until agriculture was destroyed,
either through patronage, misguided socialism, or war. Now, some famine
is related to drought conditions. If drought occurs, then it's reasonable
to bring in food from elsewhere. If drought happens time and time and time
again, that's a huge clue: Area not fit for human habitation. Artificial.

Illness can be a matter of not fully understanding the human body,
although it's entirely possible that some illnesses won't be cured ever.
Other illnesses are a matter of understanding the human body but choosing
a lifestyle that's incompatible with avoiding the illness. Artificial.

You're against entropy? Give me a break (not necessarily no pun intended).
Adam H. Kerman
2011-09-28 15:01:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by China Blue Corn Chips
Earthquakes, floods, famine, disease, illness, old age, entropy - yeah,
thanks, God, you're a real swell guy. Thanks for giving us the "free
will" to do absolutely fuck all about any of his groovy little rules...
Earthquakes don't kill people,
This statement - and everything below - is just arrant nonsense!
Call me when you return to reality.
Reality: If you have my number, lose it!

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