Discussion:
Doctor Who - Heaven Sent - Review With Spoilers
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The Doctor
2015-11-29 03:25:54 UTC
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9/10 .

I will never give out perfect scores unless the episode is excpetional.

Psychodrama at its best!

Te Doctor supposed it instantly teleported from secret London to
a mysteriuos castle 1 light year away from Earth.

He has to figure out why and how he got there
and what trap awaits him.

IF you have not figured out Moffat and how he likes to torture the Doctor,
Watch this hour long episode.

Apppearently the Doctor is caught in a repeat until loop.

Repeat the sequenece until you break the diamond mountain.

By the Way he must have done this billions of times until he broke the loop.

Where does he end up?


Home! And next week looks interesting!

You have to pay close attention!!

This makes Midnight looks a picnic.
--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca
God,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism
Happy Christmas 2015 and Merry New Year 2016
TB
2015-11-29 03:52:37 UTC
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Post by The Doctor
9/10 .
I will never give out perfect scores unless the episode is excpetional.
Psychodrama at its best!
Te Doctor supposed it instantly teleported from secret London to
a mysteriuos castle 1 light year away from Earth.
He has to figure out why and how he got there
and what trap awaits him.
IF you have not figured out Moffat and how he likes to torture the Doctor,
Watch this hour long episode.
Apppearently the Doctor is caught in a repeat until loop.
Repeat the sequenece until you break the diamond mountain.
By the Way he must have done this billions of times until he broke the loop.
Where does he end up?
Home! And next week looks interesting!
So Gallifrey is no more than one light year from Earth?
Mike M
2015-11-29 09:21:46 UTC
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Post by TB
Post by The Doctor
9/10 .
I will never give out perfect scores unless the episode is excpetional.
Psychodrama at its best!
Te Doctor supposed it instantly teleported from secret London to
a mysteriuos castle 1 light year away from Earth.
He has to figure out why and how he got there
and what trap awaits him.
IF you have not figured out Moffat and how he likes to torture the Doctor,
Watch this hour long episode.
Apppearently the Doctor is caught in a repeat until loop.
Repeat the sequenece until you break the diamond mountain.
By the Way he must have done this billions of times until he broke the loop.
Where does he end up?
Home! And next week looks interesting!
So Gallifrey is no more than one light year from Earth?
The last time Gallifrey was co-existent with our universe was in _The
End of Time_, at which point it was less than one light SECOND aawy from
Earth.

However, the Doctor wasn't ON Gallifrey during _Heaven Sent_. He was in
a psychological prison construct made from his own confession disc, and
may have had no physical exstence at all until he broke out and stepped
through a portal onto Gallifrey.
--
"In 900 years of time and space, I've never met anyone who wasn't
important."
The Doctor
2015-11-29 13:29:31 UTC
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Post by Mike M
Post by TB
Post by The Doctor
9/10 .
I will never give out perfect scores unless the episode is excpetional.
Psychodrama at its best!
Te Doctor supposed it instantly teleported from secret London to
a mysteriuos castle 1 light year away from Earth.
He has to figure out why and how he got there
and what trap awaits him.
IF you have not figured out Moffat and how he likes to torture the Doctor,
Watch this hour long episode.
Apppearently the Doctor is caught in a repeat until loop.
Repeat the sequenece until you break the diamond mountain.
By the Way he must have done this billions of times until he broke the loop.
Where does he end up?
Home! And next week looks interesting!
So Gallifrey is no more than one light year from Earth?
The last time Gallifrey was co-existent with our universe was in _The
End of Time_, at which point it was less than one light SECOND aawy from
Earth.
However, the Doctor wasn't ON Gallifrey during _Heaven Sent_. He was in
a psychological prison construct made from his own confession disc, and
may have had no physical exstence at all until he broke out and stepped
through a portal onto Gallifrey.
--
"In 900 years of time and space, I've never met anyone who wasn't
important."
And that disc was left with Ashildr.
--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca
God,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism
Happy Christmas 2015 and Merry New Year 2016
The Doctor
2015-11-29 13:25:14 UTC
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Post by TB
Post by The Doctor
9/10 .
I will never give out perfect scores unless the episode is excpetional.
Psychodrama at its best!
Te Doctor supposed it instantly teleported from secret London to
a mysteriuos castle 1 light year away from Earth.
He has to figure out why and how he got there
and what trap awaits him.
IF you have not figured out Moffat and how he likes to torture the Doctor,
Watch this hour long episode.
Apppearently the Doctor is caught in a repeat until loop.
Repeat the sequenece until you break the diamond mountain.
By the Way he must have done this billions of times until he broke the loop.
Where does he end up?
Home! And next week looks interesting!
So Gallifrey is no more than one light year from Earth?
Wrong. The Doctor's is in his confession dial. Gallifrey
is way further than that.
--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca
God,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism
Happy Christmas 2015 and Merry New Year 2016
John Hall
2015-11-29 11:05:38 UTC
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Post by The Doctor
9/10 .
I will never give out perfect scores unless the episode is excpetional.
My own score would be a lot lower than 9.

As usual with Steven Moffat these days, that was very clever but full of
holes. I think the production team needs an official Devil's Advocate,
someone whose job is to say: "Brilliant idea, Steven, but there are some
problems with it: this, this and this. Can you find a plausible way to
work around them?"

SPOILERS FOLLOW!

First problem: the teleport technology used to bring the Doctor to the
castle is said by the Doctor to be limited to a range of one lightyear.
That's fundamental, as it allows the Doctor to know what the sky looks
like at the present time and hence to determine how far in the future he
is. From that he is able to work out that when he dies he must be
brought back to life using a back-up recording that his captors must
have made. But where within one lightyear could his prison possibly be?
It seems that it would have to be on a planet or moon somewhere in our
solar system. A force field could perhaps keep in a breathable
atmosphere, but it would have to be close enough to the sun to have a
proper night and day, its gravity would have to be not much less than
Earth's (judging by the speed at which the Doctor's trinket dropped),
and the atmosphere would have to be transparent. I'm not sure that
there's anywhere other than Earth itself meeting those criteria, and not
even Earth would do so after a billion years had passed. Then at the end
of the episode he is teleported again and seemingly finds himself on
Gallifrey, if I've interpreted it correctly. OK, maybe this was a
different sort of teleport device, not limited to one lightyear in
range. I wouldn't normally try to analyse a Who episode in such hard SF
terms, but by using a hard SF idea this episode invited that.

Second problem: Apparently the Veil instantly knows when the Doctor has
made a true confession. It has to, as its creators must know that he is
quite capable of lying. And since the Doctor does not try to lie to it,
he must believe that it will know if he lies. How can it do that, unless
his captors have access to all his memories (which he more or less
concedes they do when he refers to the prison having things that
particularly scare him)? If they have all his memories, which they could
surely access by scanning the back-up on disk that they've made of him,
then why do they need him to confess? They should know all about the
mysterious Hybrid and who it is. (If it's the Doctor himself, I do hope
they aren't going to revive the "Doctor has a mother from Earth" idea.)
I also have a problem with the whole idea of being able to recreate the
Doctor perfectly from a back-up. (Talking of confessions: that the
Doctor originally left Gallifrey because of fear rather than boredom is
interesting. I wonder what he feared.)

Third problem: Could even the Time Lords keep this operation running for
over a billion years? Even their creations can't be immune to entropy. I
wish a more believable time-span such as 5,000 years had been chosen.

Fourth and biggest problem: Surely the Time Lords must have installed
some sort of monitoring system in their prison, even if its operation is
fully automated? They know how resourceful the Doctor is. With a billion
years to work out what is going on, they should surely have realised
that the Doctor wasn't punching the adamantine shield out of pure pique.
Even if they didn't, they should surely have been able to detect the
increasing level of damage to it.

I suppose if the episode could provoke such a lot of thought on my part,
then it must have been better than I at first thought! The big reveal at
the end didn't come as a great surprise. Only the Time Lords combine
such a high level of technology with such a high level of sadism!
Anyway, I'm looking forward to next week, when it seems we'll get to
meet a lot more characters than just the Doctor, his imagined Clara, and
the Veil.
--
John Hall
"Honest criticism is hard to take,
particularly from a relative, a friend,
an acquaintance, or a stranger." Franklin P Jones
The Doctor
2015-11-29 13:21:32 UTC
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Post by John Hall
Post by The Doctor
9/10 .
I will never give out perfect scores unless the episode is excpetional.
My own score would be a lot lower than 9.
As usual with Steven Moffat these days, that was very clever but full of
holes. I think the production team needs an official Devil's Advocate,
someone whose job is to say: "Brilliant idea, Steven, but there are some
problems with it: this, this and this. Can you find a plausible way to
work around them?"
SPOILERS FOLLOW!
First problem: the teleport technology used to bring the Doctor to the
castle is said by the Doctor to be limited to a range of one lightyear.
That's fundamental, as it allows the Doctor to know what the sky looks
like at the present time and hence to determine how far in the future he
is. From that he is able to work out that when he dies he must be
brought back to life using a back-up recording that his captors must
have made. But where within one lightyear could his prison possibly be?
It seems that it would have to be on a planet or moon somewhere in our
solar system. A force field could perhaps keep in a breathable
atmosphere, but it would have to be close enough to the sun to have a
proper night and day, its gravity would have to be not much less than
Earth's (judging by the speed at which the Doctor's trinket dropped),
and the atmosphere would have to be transparent. I'm not sure that
there's anywhere other than Earth itself meeting those criteria, and not
even Earth would do so after a billion years had passed. Then at the end
of the episode he is teleported again and seemingly finds himself on
Gallifrey, if I've interpreted it correctly. OK, maybe this was a
different sort of teleport device, not limited to one lightyear in
range. I wouldn't normally try to analyse a Who episode in such hard SF
terms, but by using a hard SF idea this episode invited that.
REcall the Doctor did give Ashilidr his confession dial.
Post by John Hall
Second problem: Apparently the Veil instantly knows when the Doctor has
made a true confession. It has to, as its creators must know that he is
quite capable of lying. And since the Doctor does not try to lie to it,
he must believe that it will know if he lies. How can it do that, unless
his captors have access to all his memories (which he more or less
concedes they do when he refers to the prison having things that
particularly scare him)? If they have all his memories, which they could
surely access by scanning the back-up on disk that they've made of him,
then why do they need him to confess? They should know all about the
mysterious Hybrid and who it is. (If it's the Doctor himself, I do hope
they aren't going to revive the "Doctor has a mother from Earth" idea.)
I also have a problem with the whole idea of being able to recreate the
Doctor perfectly from a back-up. (Talking of confessions: that the
Doctor originally left Gallifrey because of fear rather than boredom is
interesting. I wonder what he feared.)
Who are his captors, if any?
Post by John Hall
Third problem: Could even the Time Lords keep this operation running for
over a billion years? Even their creations can't be immune to entropy. I
wish a more believable time-span such as 5,000 years had been chosen.
It is the Time Lords?
Post by John Hall
Fourth and biggest problem: Surely the Time Lords must have installed
some sort of monitoring system in their prison, even if its operation is
fully automated? They know how resourceful the Doctor is. With a billion
years to work out what is going on, they should surely have realised
that the Doctor wasn't punching the adamantine shield out of pure pique.
Even if they didn't, they should surely have been able to detect the
increasing level of damage to it.
REmember he is caught in a loop.
Post by John Hall
I suppose if the episode could provoke such a lot of thought on my part,
then it must have been better than I at first thought! The big reveal at
the end didn't come as a great surprise. Only the Time Lords combine
such a high level of technology with such a high level of sadism!
Anyway, I'm looking forward to next week, when it seems we'll get to
meet a lot more characters than just the Doctor, his imagined Clara, and
the Veil.
--
John Hall
"Honest criticism is hard to take,
particularly from a relative, a friend,
an acquaintance, or a stranger." Franklin P Jones
--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca
God,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism
Happy Christmas 2015 and Merry New Year 2016
anim8rfsk
2015-11-29 15:55:47 UTC
Reply
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Post by John Hall
Post by The Doctor
9/10 .
I will never give out perfect scores unless the episode is excpetional.
My own score would be a lot lower than 9.
Can we go negative?
Post by John Hall
As usual with Steven Moffat these days, that was very clever but full of
holes. I think the production team needs an official Devil's Advocate,
someone whose job is to say: "Brilliant idea, Steven, but there are some
problems with it: this, this and this. Can you find a plausible way to
work around them?"
SPOILERS FOLLOW!
First problem: the teleport technology used to bring the Doctor to the
castle is said by the Doctor to be limited to a range of one lightyear.
That's fundamental, as it allows the Doctor to know what the sky looks
like at the present time and hence to determine how far in the future he
is. From that he is able to work out that when he dies he must be
brought back to life using a back-up recording that his captors must
have made. But where within one lightyear could his prison possibly be?
It seems that it would have to be on a planet or moon somewhere in our
solar system. A force field could perhaps keep in a breathable
atmosphere, but it would have to be close enough to the sun to have a
proper night and day, its gravity would have to be not much less than
Earth's (judging by the speed at which the Doctor's trinket dropped),
and the atmosphere would have to be transparent. I'm not sure that
there's anywhere other than Earth itself meeting those criteria, and not
even Earth would do so after a billion years had passed. Then at the end
of the episode he is teleported again and seemingly finds himself on
Gallifrey, if I've interpreted it correctly. OK, maybe this was a
different sort of teleport device, not limited to one lightyear in
range. I wouldn't normally try to analyse a Who episode in such hard SF
terms, but by using a hard SF idea this episode invited that.
Yep, the entire "less than one light year away in the same time zone"
set-up displays a level of ignorance that borders on unimaginable.
Post by John Hall
Second problem: Apparently the Veil instantly knows when the Doctor has
made a true confession. It has to, as its creators must know that he is
quite capable of lying. And since the Doctor does not try to lie to it,
he must believe that it will know if he lies. How can it do that, unless
his captors have access to all his memories (which he more or less
concedes they do when he refers to the prison having things that
particularly scare him)? If they have all his memories, which they could
surely access by scanning the back-up on disk that they've made of him,
then why do they need him to confess? They should know all about the
mysterious Hybrid and who it is. (If it's the Doctor himself, I do hope
they aren't going to revive the "Doctor has a mother from Earth" idea.)
I also have a problem with the whole idea of being able to recreate the
Doctor perfectly from a back-up. (Talking of confessions: that the
Doctor originally left Gallifrey because of fear rather than boredom is
interesting. I wonder what he feared.)
A serious problem with the dying doctor having enough energy to run the
teleporter and recreate himself fully powered ...
Post by John Hall
Third problem: Could even the Time Lords keep this operation running for
over a billion years? Even their creations can't be immune to entropy. I
wish a more believable time-span such as 5,000 years had been chosen.
Fourth and biggest problem: Surely the Time Lords must have installed
some sort of monitoring system in their prison, even if its operation is
fully automated? They know how resourceful the Doctor is. With a billion
years to work out what is going on, they should surely have realised
that the Doctor wasn't punching the adamantine shield out of pure pique.
Even if they didn't, they should surely have been able to detect the
increasing level of damage to it.
Lucky that THAT room doesn't reset, isn't it?
Post by John Hall
I suppose if the episode could provoke such a lot of thought on my part,
then it must have been better than I at first thought!
No, whatever you thought, it's far worse, shattering last week's "worst
ever" record in, er, record time.

The big reveal at
Post by John Hall
the end didn't come as a great surprise. Only the Time Lords combine
such a high level of technology with such a high level of sadism!
Anyway, I'm looking forward to next week, when it seems we'll get to
meet a lot more characters than just the Doctor, his imagined Clara, and
the Veil.
--
Barb May is wrong, stupid, fat, ugly, and a liar. As usual.
Arthur Lipscomb
2015-11-29 16:51:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by John Hall
Post by The Doctor
9/10 .
I will never give out perfect scores unless the episode is excpetional.
My own score would be a lot lower than 9.
Can we go negative?
Post by John Hall
As usual with Steven Moffat these days, that was very clever but full of
holes. I think the production team needs an official Devil's Advocate,
someone whose job is to say: "Brilliant idea, Steven, but there are some
problems with it: this, this and this. Can you find a plausible way to
work around them?"
SPOILERS FOLLOW!
First problem: the teleport technology used to bring the Doctor to the
castle is said by the Doctor to be limited to a range of one lightyear.
That's fundamental, as it allows the Doctor to know what the sky looks
like at the present time and hence to determine how far in the future he
is. From that he is able to work out that when he dies he must be
brought back to life using a back-up recording that his captors must
have made. But where within one lightyear could his prison possibly be?
It seems that it would have to be on a planet or moon somewhere in our
solar system. A force field could perhaps keep in a breathable
atmosphere, but it would have to be close enough to the sun to have a
proper night and day, its gravity would have to be not much less than
Earth's (judging by the speed at which the Doctor's trinket dropped),
and the atmosphere would have to be transparent. I'm not sure that
there's anywhere other than Earth itself meeting those criteria, and not
even Earth would do so after a billion years had passed. Then at the end
of the episode he is teleported again and seemingly finds himself on
Gallifrey, if I've interpreted it correctly. OK, maybe this was a
different sort of teleport device, not limited to one lightyear in
range. I wouldn't normally try to analyse a Who episode in such hard SF
terms, but by using a hard SF idea this episode invited that.
Yep, the entire "less than one light year away in the same time zone"
set-up displays a level of ignorance that borders on unimaginable.
Post by John Hall
Second problem: Apparently the Veil instantly knows when the Doctor has
made a true confession. It has to, as its creators must know that he is
quite capable of lying. And since the Doctor does not try to lie to it,
he must believe that it will know if he lies. How can it do that, unless
his captors have access to all his memories (which he more or less
concedes they do when he refers to the prison having things that
particularly scare him)? If they have all his memories, which they could
surely access by scanning the back-up on disk that they've made of him,
then why do they need him to confess? They should know all about the
mysterious Hybrid and who it is. (If it's the Doctor himself, I do hope
they aren't going to revive the "Doctor has a mother from Earth" idea.)
I also have a problem with the whole idea of being able to recreate the
Doctor perfectly from a back-up. (Talking of confessions: that the
Doctor originally left Gallifrey because of fear rather than boredom is
interesting. I wonder what he feared.)
A serious problem with the dying doctor having enough energy to run the
teleporter and recreate himself fully powered ...
Post by John Hall
Third problem: Could even the Time Lords keep this operation running for
over a billion years? Even their creations can't be immune to entropy. I
wish a more believable time-span such as 5,000 years had been chosen.
Fourth and biggest problem: Surely the Time Lords must have installed
some sort of monitoring system in their prison, even if its operation is
fully automated? They know how resourceful the Doctor is. With a billion
years to work out what is going on, they should surely have realised
that the Doctor wasn't punching the adamantine shield out of pure pique.
Even if they didn't, they should surely have been able to detect the
increasing level of damage to it.
Why even create such an elaborate pointless trap in the first place?
Sure they are free of the doctor for a couple of billion years until he
gets free, hops in his *time machine* and it's as if he was never locked
up in the first place. He doesn't even have to suffer from the trauma
of spending a billion years there since he won't remember it.
Post by anim8rfsk
Lucky that THAT room doesn't reset, isn't it?
Post by John Hall
I suppose if the episode could provoke such a lot of thought on my part,
then it must have been better than I at first thought!
No, whatever you thought, it's far worse, shattering last week's "worst
ever" record in, er, record time.
OK, so then I'm not the only one who had *serious* issues with this
episode. :-/
Post by anim8rfsk
The big reveal at
Post by John Hall
the end didn't come as a great surprise. Only the Time Lords combine
such a high level of technology with such a high level of sadism!
Anyway, I'm looking forward to next week, when it seems we'll get to
meet a lot more characters than just the Doctor, his imagined Clara, and
the Veil.
anim8rfsk
2015-11-29 17:35:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Arthur Lipscomb
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by John Hall
Post by The Doctor
9/10 .
I will never give out perfect scores unless the episode is excpetional.
My own score would be a lot lower than 9.
Can we go negative?
Post by John Hall
As usual with Steven Moffat these days, that was very clever but full of
holes. I think the production team needs an official Devil's Advocate,
someone whose job is to say: "Brilliant idea, Steven, but there are some
problems with it: this, this and this. Can you find a plausible way to
work around them?"
SPOILERS FOLLOW!
First problem: the teleport technology used to bring the Doctor to the
castle is said by the Doctor to be limited to a range of one lightyear.
That's fundamental, as it allows the Doctor to know what the sky looks
like at the present time and hence to determine how far in the future he
is. From that he is able to work out that when he dies he must be
brought back to life using a back-up recording that his captors must
have made. But where within one lightyear could his prison possibly be?
It seems that it would have to be on a planet or moon somewhere in our
solar system. A force field could perhaps keep in a breathable
atmosphere, but it would have to be close enough to the sun to have a
proper night and day, its gravity would have to be not much less than
Earth's (judging by the speed at which the Doctor's trinket dropped),
and the atmosphere would have to be transparent. I'm not sure that
there's anywhere other than Earth itself meeting those criteria, and not
even Earth would do so after a billion years had passed. Then at the end
of the episode he is teleported again and seemingly finds himself on
Gallifrey, if I've interpreted it correctly. OK, maybe this was a
different sort of teleport device, not limited to one lightyear in
range. I wouldn't normally try to analyse a Who episode in such hard SF
terms, but by using a hard SF idea this episode invited that.
Yep, the entire "less than one light year away in the same time zone"
set-up displays a level of ignorance that borders on unimaginable.
Post by John Hall
Second problem: Apparently the Veil instantly knows when the Doctor has
made a true confession. It has to, as its creators must know that he is
quite capable of lying. And since the Doctor does not try to lie to it,
he must believe that it will know if he lies. How can it do that, unless
his captors have access to all his memories (which he more or less
concedes they do when he refers to the prison having things that
particularly scare him)? If they have all his memories, which they could
surely access by scanning the back-up on disk that they've made of him,
then why do they need him to confess? They should know all about the
mysterious Hybrid and who it is. (If it's the Doctor himself, I do hope
they aren't going to revive the "Doctor has a mother from Earth" idea.)
I also have a problem with the whole idea of being able to recreate the
Doctor perfectly from a back-up. (Talking of confessions: that the
Doctor originally left Gallifrey because of fear rather than boredom is
interesting. I wonder what he feared.)
A serious problem with the dying doctor having enough energy to run the
teleporter and recreate himself fully powered ...
Post by John Hall
Third problem: Could even the Time Lords keep this operation running for
over a billion years? Even their creations can't be immune to entropy. I
wish a more believable time-span such as 5,000 years had been chosen.
Fourth and biggest problem: Surely the Time Lords must have installed
some sort of monitoring system in their prison, even if its operation is
fully automated? They know how resourceful the Doctor is. With a billion
years to work out what is going on, they should surely have realised
that the Doctor wasn't punching the adamantine shield out of pure pique.
Even if they didn't, they should surely have been able to detect the
increasing level of damage to it.
Why even create such an elaborate pointless trap in the first place?
Sure they are free of the doctor for a couple of billion years until he
gets free, hops in his *time machine* and it's as if he was never locked
And why make an escape possibly at all?
Post by Arthur Lipscomb
up in the first place. He doesn't even have to suffer from the trauma
of spending a billion years there since he won't remember it.
Yeah, how exactly *was* he keeping count? Just by looking at the stars?
And why did it possibly take him thousands of years to come up with "the
transporter room resets" every time?
Post by Arthur Lipscomb
Post by anim8rfsk
Lucky that THAT room doesn't reset, isn't it?
Post by John Hall
I suppose if the episode could provoke such a lot of thought on my part,
then it must have been better than I at first thought!
No, whatever you thought, it's far worse, shattering last week's "worst
ever" record in, er, record time.
OK, so then I'm not the only one who had *serious* issues with this
episode. :-/
Nope.

And those rear shots of Clara were so *clearly* really Jenna that you
knew her face would show before the end. My recording clipped off the
end credits - did they credit her? I know they didn't at the beginning.
--
Barb May is wrong, stupid, fat, ugly, and a liar. As usual.
David Barnett
2015-11-29 19:42:17 UTC
Reply
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In article <anim8rfsk-B50F45.10350829112015
@news.easynews.com>, ***@cox.net says...
Post by anim8rfsk
And those rear shots of Clara were so *clearly* really Jenna that you
knew her face would show before the end. My recording clipped off the
end credits - did they credit her? I know they didn't at the beginning.
Yes, the end credits did.
--
David Barnett
The Doctor
2015-11-29 21:07:53 UTC
Reply
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Post by David Barnett
In article <anim8rfsk-B50F45.10350829112015
@news.easynews.com>, ***@cox.net says...
Post by anim8rfsk
And those rear shots of Clara were so *clearly* really Jenna that you
knew her face would show before the end. My recording clipped off the
end credits - did they credit her? I know they didn't at the beginning.
Yes, the end credits did.
--
David Barnett
"get off your arse"
--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca
God,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism
Happy Christmas 2015 and Merry New Year 2016
The Doctor
2015-11-29 21:06:15 UTC
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Post by anim8rfsk
Post by Arthur Lipscomb
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by John Hall
Post by The Doctor
9/10 .
I will never give out perfect scores unless the episode is excpetional.
My own score would be a lot lower than 9.
Can we go negative?
Post by John Hall
As usual with Steven Moffat these days, that was very clever but full of
holes. I think the production team needs an official Devil's Advocate,
someone whose job is to say: "Brilliant idea, Steven, but there are some
problems with it: this, this and this. Can you find a plausible way to
work around them?"
SPOILERS FOLLOW!
First problem: the teleport technology used to bring the Doctor to the
castle is said by the Doctor to be limited to a range of one lightyear.
That's fundamental, as it allows the Doctor to know what the sky looks
like at the present time and hence to determine how far in the future he
is. From that he is able to work out that when he dies he must be
brought back to life using a back-up recording that his captors must
have made. But where within one lightyear could his prison possibly be?
It seems that it would have to be on a planet or moon somewhere in our
solar system. A force field could perhaps keep in a breathable
atmosphere, but it would have to be close enough to the sun to have a
proper night and day, its gravity would have to be not much less than
Earth's (judging by the speed at which the Doctor's trinket dropped),
and the atmosphere would have to be transparent. I'm not sure that
there's anywhere other than Earth itself meeting those criteria, and not
even Earth would do so after a billion years had passed. Then at the end
of the episode he is teleported again and seemingly finds himself on
Gallifrey, if I've interpreted it correctly. OK, maybe this was a
different sort of teleport device, not limited to one lightyear in
range. I wouldn't normally try to analyse a Who episode in such hard SF
terms, but by using a hard SF idea this episode invited that.
Yep, the entire "less than one light year away in the same time zone"
set-up displays a level of ignorance that borders on unimaginable.
Post by John Hall
Second problem: Apparently the Veil instantly knows when the Doctor has
made a true confession. It has to, as its creators must know that he is
quite capable of lying. And since the Doctor does not try to lie to it,
he must believe that it will know if he lies. How can it do that, unless
his captors have access to all his memories (which he more or less
concedes they do when he refers to the prison having things that
particularly scare him)? If they have all his memories, which they could
surely access by scanning the back-up on disk that they've made of him,
then why do they need him to confess? They should know all about the
mysterious Hybrid and who it is. (If it's the Doctor himself, I do hope
they aren't going to revive the "Doctor has a mother from Earth" idea.)
I also have a problem with the whole idea of being able to recreate the
Doctor perfectly from a back-up. (Talking of confessions: that the
Doctor originally left Gallifrey because of fear rather than boredom is
interesting. I wonder what he feared.)
A serious problem with the dying doctor having enough energy to run the
teleporter and recreate himself fully powered ...
Post by John Hall
Third problem: Could even the Time Lords keep this operation running for
over a billion years? Even their creations can't be immune to entropy. I
wish a more believable time-span such as 5,000 years had been chosen.
Fourth and biggest problem: Surely the Time Lords must have installed
some sort of monitoring system in their prison, even if its operation is
fully automated? They know how resourceful the Doctor is. With a billion
years to work out what is going on, they should surely have realised
that the Doctor wasn't punching the adamantine shield out of pure pique.
Even if they didn't, they should surely have been able to detect the
increasing level of damage to it.
Why even create such an elaborate pointless trap in the first place?
Sure they are free of the doctor for a couple of billion years until he
gets free, hops in his *time machine* and it's as if he was never locked
And why make an escape possibly at all?
The *time machine* scenes are all virtual.
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by Arthur Lipscomb
up in the first place. He doesn't even have to suffer from the trauma
of spending a billion years there since he won't remember it.
Yeah, how exactly *was* he keeping count? Just by looking at the stars?
And why did it possibly take him thousands of years to come up with "the
transporter room resets" every time?
He does not recall the time he as been reset.
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by Arthur Lipscomb
Post by anim8rfsk
Lucky that THAT room doesn't reset, isn't it?
Post by John Hall
I suppose if the episode could provoke such a lot of thought on my part,
then it must have been better than I at first thought!
No, whatever you thought, it's far worse, shattering last week's "worst
ever" record in, er, record time.
OK, so then I'm not the only one who had *serious* issues with this
episode. :-/
Nope.
And those rear shots of Clara were so *clearly* really Jenna that you
knew her face would show before the end. My recording clipped off the
end credits - did they credit her? I know they didn't at the beginning.
They did at the end.
Post by anim8rfsk
--
Barb May is wrong, stupid, fat, ugly, and a liar. As usual.
--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca
God,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism
Happy Christmas 2015 and Merry New Year 2016
Siri Cruz
2015-11-29 17:39:35 UTC
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Post by Arthur Lipscomb
Why even create such an elaborate pointless trap in the first place?
Sure they are free of the doctor for a couple of billion years until he
gets free, hops in his *time machine* and it's as if he was never locked
up in the first place. He doesn't even have to suffer from the trauma
of spending a billion years there since he won't remember it.
They were trying to extract information about the Hybrid. And failed because the
Doctor allowed himself to be killed rather than reveal the Hybrid was not part
Dalek but all Dalek and he was the Hybrid.

Hybrid? Dalek? Gallifrey? I haven't got a clue.

Since Gallifrey isn't in normal space, its crack to normal space could be within
a light year.
--
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted.
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'
God exists since mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists since we
cannot prove the consistency. ~~ Morris Kline
TB
2015-11-29 19:52:18 UTC
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Post by Siri Cruz
Post by Arthur Lipscomb
Why even create such an elaborate pointless trap in the first place?
Sure they are free of the doctor for a couple of billion years until he
gets free, hops in his *time machine* and it's as if he was never locked
up in the first place. He doesn't even have to suffer from the trauma
of spending a billion years there since he won't remember it.
They were trying to extract information about the Hybrid. And failed because the
Doctor allowed himself to be killed rather than reveal the Hybrid was not part
Dalek but all Dalek and he was the Hybrid.
At the end, the Doctor tells his confession dial that the Big Bad Hybrid is "me". Or it might be "Me" (Ashildr). In a sense, his interrogators succeeded in extracting the truth!

When he asked a boy to tell the city authorities about his presence, why didn't he explicitly ID himself as "The Doctor"?
The Doctor
2015-11-29 21:07:22 UTC
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Post by Siri Cruz
Post by Arthur Lipscomb
Why even create such an elaborate pointless trap in the first place?
Sure they are free of the doctor for a couple of billion years until he
gets free, hops in his *time machine* and it's as if he was never locked
up in the first place. He doesn't even have to suffer from the trauma
of spending a billion years there since he won't remember it.
They were trying to extract information about the Hybrid. And failed because the
Doctor allowed himself to be killed rather than reveal the Hybrid was not part
Dalek but all Dalek and he was the Hybrid.
Hybrid? Dalek? Gallifrey? I haven't got a clue.
Since Gallifrey isn't in normal space, its crack to normal space could be within
a light year.
We guess. The Doctor most likely was teleported into his confession dial.
Post by Siri Cruz
--
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted.
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'
God exists since mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists since we
cannot prove the consistency. ~~ Morris Kline
--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca
God,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism
Happy Christmas 2015 and Merry New Year 2016
The Doctor
2015-11-29 21:04:13 UTC
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Post by Arthur Lipscomb
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by John Hall
Post by The Doctor
9/10 .
I will never give out perfect scores unless the episode is excpetional.
My own score would be a lot lower than 9.
Can we go negative?
Post by John Hall
As usual with Steven Moffat these days, that was very clever but full of
holes. I think the production team needs an official Devil's Advocate,
someone whose job is to say: "Brilliant idea, Steven, but there are some
problems with it: this, this and this. Can you find a plausible way to
work around them?"
SPOILERS FOLLOW!
First problem: the teleport technology used to bring the Doctor to the
castle is said by the Doctor to be limited to a range of one lightyear.
That's fundamental, as it allows the Doctor to know what the sky looks
like at the present time and hence to determine how far in the future he
is. From that he is able to work out that when he dies he must be
brought back to life using a back-up recording that his captors must
have made. But where within one lightyear could his prison possibly be?
It seems that it would have to be on a planet or moon somewhere in our
solar system. A force field could perhaps keep in a breathable
atmosphere, but it would have to be close enough to the sun to have a
proper night and day, its gravity would have to be not much less than
Earth's (judging by the speed at which the Doctor's trinket dropped),
and the atmosphere would have to be transparent. I'm not sure that
there's anywhere other than Earth itself meeting those criteria, and not
even Earth would do so after a billion years had passed. Then at the end
of the episode he is teleported again and seemingly finds himself on
Gallifrey, if I've interpreted it correctly. OK, maybe this was a
different sort of teleport device, not limited to one lightyear in
range. I wouldn't normally try to analyse a Who episode in such hard SF
terms, but by using a hard SF idea this episode invited that.
Yep, the entire "less than one light year away in the same time zone"
set-up displays a level of ignorance that borders on unimaginable.
Post by John Hall
Second problem: Apparently the Veil instantly knows when the Doctor has
made a true confession. It has to, as its creators must know that he is
quite capable of lying. And since the Doctor does not try to lie to it,
he must believe that it will know if he lies. How can it do that, unless
his captors have access to all his memories (which he more or less
concedes they do when he refers to the prison having things that
particularly scare him)? If they have all his memories, which they could
surely access by scanning the back-up on disk that they've made of him,
then why do they need him to confess? They should know all about the
mysterious Hybrid and who it is. (If it's the Doctor himself, I do hope
they aren't going to revive the "Doctor has a mother from Earth" idea.)
I also have a problem with the whole idea of being able to recreate the
Doctor perfectly from a back-up. (Talking of confessions: that the
Doctor originally left Gallifrey because of fear rather than boredom is
interesting. I wonder what he feared.)
A serious problem with the dying doctor having enough energy to run the
teleporter and recreate himself fully powered ...
Post by John Hall
Third problem: Could even the Time Lords keep this operation running for
over a billion years? Even their creations can't be immune to entropy. I
wish a more believable time-span such as 5,000 years had been chosen.
Fourth and biggest problem: Surely the Time Lords must have installed
some sort of monitoring system in their prison, even if its operation is
fully automated? They know how resourceful the Doctor is. With a billion
years to work out what is going on, they should surely have realised
that the Doctor wasn't punching the adamantine shield out of pure pique.
Even if they didn't, they should surely have been able to detect the
increasing level of damage to it.
Why even create such an elaborate pointless trap in the first place?
Sure they are free of the doctor for a couple of billion years until he
gets free, hops in his *time machine* and it's as if he was never locked
up in the first place. He doesn't even have to suffer from the trauma
of spending a billion years there since he won't remember it.
Becaue the Doctor is caught in a loop.
Post by Arthur Lipscomb
Post by anim8rfsk
Lucky that THAT room doesn't reset, isn't it?
Post by John Hall
I suppose if the episode could provoke such a lot of thought on my part,
then it must have been better than I at first thought!
No, whatever you thought, it's far worse, shattering last week's "worst
ever" record in, er, record time.
OK, so then I'm not the only one who had *serious* issues with this
episode. :-/
Do you have issues in logical determination?
Post by Arthur Lipscomb
Post by anim8rfsk
The big reveal at
Post by John Hall
the end didn't come as a great surprise. Only the Time Lords combine
such a high level of technology with such a high level of sadism!
Anyway, I'm looking forward to next week, when it seems we'll get to
meet a lot more characters than just the Doctor, his imagined Clara, and
the Veil.
--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca
God,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism
Happy Christmas 2015 and Merry New Year 2016
The Doctor
2015-11-29 21:03:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by John Hall
Post by The Doctor
9/10 .
I will never give out perfect scores unless the episode is excpetional.
My own score would be a lot lower than 9.
Can we go negative?
See ou all on imdb.
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by John Hall
As usual with Steven Moffat these days, that was very clever but full of
holes. I think the production team needs an official Devil's Advocate,
someone whose job is to say: "Brilliant idea, Steven, but there are some
problems with it: this, this and this. Can you find a plausible way to
work around them?"
SPOILERS FOLLOW!
First problem: the teleport technology used to bring the Doctor to the
castle is said by the Doctor to be limited to a range of one lightyear.
That's fundamental, as it allows the Doctor to know what the sky looks
like at the present time and hence to determine how far in the future he
is. From that he is able to work out that when he dies he must be
brought back to life using a back-up recording that his captors must
have made. But where within one lightyear could his prison possibly be?
It seems that it would have to be on a planet or moon somewhere in our
solar system. A force field could perhaps keep in a breathable
atmosphere, but it would have to be close enough to the sun to have a
proper night and day, its gravity would have to be not much less than
Earth's (judging by the speed at which the Doctor's trinket dropped),
and the atmosphere would have to be transparent. I'm not sure that
there's anywhere other than Earth itself meeting those criteria, and not
even Earth would do so after a billion years had passed. Then at the end
of the episode he is teleported again and seemingly finds himself on
Gallifrey, if I've interpreted it correctly. OK, maybe this was a
different sort of teleport device, not limited to one lightyear in
range. I wouldn't normally try to analyse a Who episode in such hard SF
terms, but by using a hard SF idea this episode invited that.
Yep, the entire "less than one light year away in the same time zone"
set-up displays a level of ignorance that borders on unimaginable.
Recall this has to deal with the confession dial which Ashildr has.
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by John Hall
Second problem: Apparently the Veil instantly knows when the Doctor has
made a true confession. It has to, as its creators must know that he is
quite capable of lying. And since the Doctor does not try to lie to it,
he must believe that it will know if he lies. How can it do that, unless
his captors have access to all his memories (which he more or less
concedes they do when he refers to the prison having things that
particularly scare him)? If they have all his memories, which they could
surely access by scanning the back-up on disk that they've made of him,
then why do they need him to confess? They should know all about the
mysterious Hybrid and who it is. (If it's the Doctor himself, I do hope
they aren't going to revive the "Doctor has a mother from Earth" idea.)
I also have a problem with the whole idea of being able to recreate the
Doctor perfectly from a back-up. (Talking of confessions: that the
Doctor originally left Gallifrey because of fear rather than boredom is
interesting. I wonder what he feared.)
A serious problem with the dying doctor having enough energy to run the
teleporter and recreate himself fully powered ...
He does so 2 000 000 000 times.

The moat is filled with his skulls.
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by John Hall
Third problem: Could even the Time Lords keep this operation running for
over a billion years? Even their creations can't be immune to entropy. I
wish a more believable time-span such as 5,000 years had been chosen.
Doubtful. REcall LEt's Kill Hitler.
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by John Hall
Fourth and biggest problem: Surely the Time Lords must have installed
some sort of monitoring system in their prison, even if its operation is
fully automated? They know how resourceful the Doctor is. With a billion
years to work out what is going on, they should surely have realised
that the Doctor wasn't punching the adamantine shield out of pure pique.
Even if they didn't, they should surely have been able to detect the
increasing level of damage to it.
Lucky that THAT room doesn't reset, isn't it?
Not of the rooms are really resetting.
Post by anim8rfsk
Post by John Hall
I suppose if the episode could provoke such a lot of thought on my part,
then it must have been better than I at first thought!
No, whatever you thought, it's far worse, shattering last week's "worst
ever" record in, er, record time.
Ever heard of a repeat-until loop?
Post by anim8rfsk
The big reveal at
Post by John Hall
the end didn't come as a great surprise. Only the Time Lords combine
such a high level of technology with such a high level of sadism!
Anyway, I'm looking forward to next week, when it seems we'll get to
meet a lot more characters than just the Doctor, his imagined Clara, and
the Veil.
This was a Hell of the Doctor's own making.
Post by anim8rfsk
--
Barb May is wrong, stupid, fat, ugly, and a liar. As usual.
--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca
God,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism
Happy Christmas 2015 and Merry New Year 2016
Siri Cruz
2015-11-29 17:31:28 UTC
Reply
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Post by John Hall
Third problem: Could even the Time Lords keep this operation running for
over a billion years? Even their creations can't be immune to entropy. I
wish a more believable time-span such as 5,000 years had been chosen.
In the Invasion of Time when they talk about the Eye of Harmony, they say it
makes a perpetual balance, so, yes, they overcome entropy.
--
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted.
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'
God exists since mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists since we
cannot prove the consistency. ~~ Morris Kline
The Doctor
2015-11-29 21:04:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Siri Cruz
Post by John Hall
Third problem: Could even the Time Lords keep this operation running for
over a billion years? Even their creations can't be immune to entropy. I
wish a more believable time-span such as 5,000 years had been chosen.
In the Invasion of Time when they talk about the Eye of Harmony, they say it
makes a perpetual balance, so, yes, they overcome entropy.
A Black Hole that give Gallifrey Time Travel power!
Post by Siri Cruz
--
:-<> Siri Seal of Disavowal #000-001. Disavowed. Denied. Deleted.
'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'
God exists since mathematics is consistent, and the devil exists since we
cannot prove the consistency. ~~ Morris Kline
--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca
God,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism
Happy Christmas 2015 and Merry New Year 2016
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