Discussion:
S6E02 Day of the Moon
(too old to reply)
Agamemnon
2011-04-30 20:55:52 UTC
Permalink
Good acting all round.

Lots of stuff that doesn't seem to add up which hopefully will be explained
later.

River mentions once again that she's living her life with the Doctor in
reverse, so when did the Doctor give her his supped up sonic screwdriver
which she said he was supposed to have given her during their last time
together, which has to be in the Doctor's past? It can't have been Tennant's
Doctor because she didn't recognise him and thought he looked younger and we
all know he looked the same before he regenerated. If it was Matt Smith's
Doctor then why weren't we shown the moment, and it obviously must have
happened in the Doctor's time line before the story with the Weeping Angels
but the 11th Doctor hasn't seen her before that event.

On top of that the Doctor mentions to River an adventure she's hasn't yet
been on when he's 200 years older so that doesn't add up either if every
time she meets him, he's younger. And how does she end up back in jail for
the Weeping Angels story if she's just escaped from it for this one?

Amy pregnant for 3 months then not pregnant. Is the Time Lord gestation
period 3 months or less? Still doesn't make sense even if the baby is a Time
Lord. She was with Rory for 2 months while the Doctor was away so that makes
5 months, so why didn't anyone notice her bump? Or could the Master be the
father I wonder.

Is the girl River. Both Amy and River have strawberry blonde/red hair.

Why are we given the impression that the Silence has been killed off when we
are told the brought about the moon landings just so they could have a space
suit to put the girl in. And why did they need a space suit when they could
have put all the life support technology in anything they wonted since a
NASA space suit doesn't do anything different from a heated deep sea diving
suit.

How can Rory remember being an Auton unless he is still an Auton?

How can the device the Doctor implanted into Amys hand still be transmitting
her voice after the Silence removed it?

When did Nixon start taping all of his conversations in the Oval Office.
Before or after the Doctor suggests it July 1969?

10/10 for the story so far but it obviously hasn't been completed and I hope
this doesn't end up as another reset.
The Doctor
2011-04-30 21:48:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Agamemnon
Good acting all round.
Lots of stuff that doesn't seem to add up which hopefully will be explained
later.
River mentions once again that she's living her life with the Doctor in
reverse, so when did the Doctor give her his supped up sonic screwdriver
which she said he was supposed to have given her during their last time
together, which has to be in the Doctor's past? It can't have been Tennant's
Doctor because she didn't recognise him and thought he looked younger and we
all know he looked the same before he regenerated. If it was Matt Smith's
Doctor then why weren't we shown the moment, and it obviously must have
happened in the Doctor's time line before the story with the Weeping Angels
but the 11th Doctor hasn't seen her before that event.
On top of that the Doctor mentions to River an adventure she's hasn't yet
been on when he's 200 years older so that doesn't add up either if every
time she meets him, he's younger. And how does she end up back in jail for
the Weeping Angels story if she's just escaped from it for this one?
Amy pregnant for 3 months then not pregnant. Is the Time Lord gestation
period 3 months or less? Still doesn't make sense even if the baby is a Time
Lord. She was with Rory for 2 months while the Doctor was away so that makes
5 months, so why didn't anyone notice her bump? Or could the Master be the
father I wonder.
Is the girl River. Both Amy and River have strawberry blonde/red hair.
Why are we given the impression that the Silence has been killed off when we
are told the brought about the moon landings just so they could have a space
suit to put the girl in. And why did they need a space suit when they could
have put all the life support technology in anything they wonted since a
NASA space suit doesn't do anything different from a heated deep sea diving
suit.
How can Rory remember being an Auton unless he is still an Auton?
How can the device the Doctor implanted into Amys hand still be transmitting
her voice after the Silence removed it?
When did Nixon start taping all of his conversations in the Oval Office.
Before or after the Doctor suggests it July 1969?
10/10 for the story so far but it obviously hasn't been completed and I hope
this doesn't end up as another reset.
I see you say 10/10 overall.
--
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Stop Stephen Harper ! on 2 May 2011 vote Harper out and Ignatieff in!
solar penguin
2011-04-30 22:12:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Agamemnon
Lots of stuff that doesn't seem to add up which hopefully will be explained
later.
Some of it will. The rest of it won't. And even the bits that are
explained, probably still won't make sense. At least that's my
prediction.
Post by Agamemnon
River mentions once again that she's living her life with the Doctor in
reverse, so when did the Doctor give her his supped up sonic screwdriver
which she said he was supposed to have given her during their last time
together, which has to be in the Doctor's past? It can't have been Tennant's
Doctor because she didn't recognise him and thought he looked younger and we
all know he looked the same before he regenerated. If it was Matt Smith's
Doctor then why weren't we shown the moment, and it obviously must have
happened in the Doctor's time line before the story with the Weeping Angels
but the 11th Doctor hasn't seen her before that event.
IMHO Moffat hasn't actually thought the implications of River's
timeline through in detail, so that's why it's never going to make any
sense no matter how hard you study it.
Post by Agamemnon
How can Rory remember being an Auton unless he is still an Auton?
A combination of a time traveller's ability to remember altered
timelines, and an unexpected wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey side effect of
the universe not-quite resetting properly at the end of last season.
(In other words Moffat probably hasn't thought about the implications
of this either!)
Post by Agamemnon
How can the device the Doctor implanted into Amys hand still be transmitting
her voice after the Silence removed it?
When the Doctor injected it, there was some technobabble that was
probably supposed to explain this. Something to do with telepathy and
cartilage. No, I don't understand it either.
Duggy
2011-05-01 12:19:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by solar penguin
IMHO Moffat hasn't actually thought the implications of River's
timeline through in detail, so that's why it's never going to make any
sense no matter how hard you study it.
I think that Moffat has changed his mind from random to backward
meetings... and previous meetings don't tally with the new version.

===
= DUG.
===
john smith
2011-05-01 01:39:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Agamemnon
Good acting all round.
Lots of stuff that doesn't seem to add up which hopefully will be
explained later.
By which, if it was written by RTD, you'd call bullshit!
Post by Agamemnon
River mentions once again that she's living her life with the Doctor in
reverse, so when did the Doctor give her his supped up sonic screwdriver
which she said he was supposed to have given her during their last time
together, which has to be in the Doctor's past? It can't have been
Tennant's Doctor because she didn't recognise him and thought he looked
younger and we all know he looked the same before he regenerated. If it
was Matt Smith's Doctor then why weren't we shown the moment, and it
obviously must have happened in the Doctor's time line before the story
with the Weeping Angels but the 11th Doctor hasn't seen her before that
event.
On top of that the Doctor mentions to River an adventure she's hasn't yet
been on when he's 200 years older so that doesn't add up either if every
time she meets him, he's younger. And how does she end up back in jail for
the Weeping Angels story if she's just escaped from it for this one?
Amy pregnant for 3 months then not pregnant. Is the Time Lord gestation
period 3 months or less? Still doesn't make sense even if the baby is a
Time Lord. She was with Rory for 2 months while the Doctor was away so
that makes 5 months, so why didn't anyone notice her bump? Or could the
Master be the father I wonder.
Is the girl River. Both Amy and River have strawberry blonde/red hair.
Why are we given the impression that the Silence has been killed off when
we are told the brought about the moon landings just so they could have a
space suit to put the girl in. And why did they need a space suit when
they could have put all the life support technology in anything they
wonted since a NASA space suit doesn't do anything different from a heated
deep sea diving suit.
How can Rory remember being an Auton unless he is still an Auton?
How can the device the Doctor implanted into Amys hand still be
transmitting her voice after the Silence removed it?
When did Nixon start taping all of his conversations in the Oval Office.
Before or after the Doctor suggests it July 1969?
10/10 for the story so far but it obviously hasn't been completed and I
hope this doesn't end up as another reset.
Agamemnon
2011-05-01 01:47:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by john smith
Post by Agamemnon
Good acting all round.
Lots of stuff that doesn't seem to add up which hopefully will be
explained later.
By which, if it was written by RTD, you'd call bullshit!
No. If RTD had written it 70% would have been soap not substance whereas
with Steve Moffat it's all substance.
Charles E Hardwidge
2011-05-01 05:58:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Agamemnon
No. If RTD had written it 70% would have been soap not substance whereas
with Steve Moffat it's all substance.
Poison, or dagger?
--
Charles E Hardwidge
The Doctor
2011-05-01 12:46:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles E Hardwidge
Post by Agamemnon
No. If RTD had written it 70% would have been soap not substance whereas
with Steve Moffat it's all substance.
Poison, or dagger?
--
Charles E Hardwidge
Decide which is RTD.
--
Member - Liberal International This is ***@nl2k.ab.ca Ici ***@nl2k.ab.ca
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Stop Stephen Harper ! on 2 May 2011 vote Harper out and Ignatieff in!
solar penguin
2011-05-01 09:20:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Agamemnon
If RTD had written it 70% would have been soap not substance whereas
with Steve Moffat it's all substance.
That "stupid face" business was all soap.

Good soap, but still soap.
john smith
2011-05-01 23:37:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Agamemnon
Post by john smith
Post by Agamemnon
Good acting all round.
Lots of stuff that doesn't seem to add up which hopefully will be
explained later.
By which, if it was written by RTD, you'd call bullshit!
No. If RTD had written it 70% would have been soap not substance whereas
with Steve Moffat it's all substance.
Oh happy days! You point out massive plot flaws and give it 10 out of 10.
Still as deluded as ever! LOL!
Charles E Hardwidge
2011-05-02 03:05:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by john smith
Post by Agamemnon
No. If RTD had written it 70% would have been soap not substance whereas
with Steve Moffat it's all substance.
Oh happy days! You point out massive plot flaws and give it 10 out of 10.
Still as deluded as ever! LOL!
I doubt Smith could explain the workings of an integrated circuit or the
finer points of fibre optic cable transmission but that doesn't stop him
mouthing off on the internet.

Vanity, vanity. Everything is vanity...
--
Charles E Hardwidge
solar penguin
2011-05-02 09:13:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles E Hardwidge
Post by john smith
Post by Agamemnon
No. If RTD had written it 70% would have been soap not substance whereas
with Steve Moffat it's all substance.
Oh happy days! You point out massive plot flaws and give it 10 out of 10.
Still as deluded as ever! LOL!
I doubt Smith could explain the workings of an integrated circuit or the
finer points of fibre optic cable transmission but that doesn't stop him
mouthing off on the internet.
Vanity, vanity. Everything is vanity...
I've not been following behind-the-scenes news closely. When has Matt
Smith been mouthing off on the internet about integrated circuits and
fibre optic cable transmission? More importantly, why has he been
doing it?
Charles E Hardwidge
2011-05-02 09:43:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by solar penguin
Post by Charles E Hardwidge
Post by john smith
Post by Agamemnon
No. If RTD had written it 70% would have been soap not substance whereas
with Steve Moffat it's all substance.
Oh happy days! You point out massive plot flaws and give it 10 out of
10. Still as deluded as ever! LOL!
I doubt Smith could explain the workings of an integrated circuit or the
finer points of fibre optic cable transmission but that doesn't stop him
mouthing off on the internet.
Vanity, vanity. Everything is vanity...
I've not been following behind-the-scenes news closely. When has Matt
Smith been mouthing off on the internet about integrated circuits and
fibre optic cable transmission? More importantly, why has he been
doing it?
I was talking about Mr Personality Disorder but if Matt Smith has been doing
it as well...

You have to be careful. That's how rumours start.
--
Charles E Hardwidge
The Doctor
2011-05-02 13:17:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles E Hardwidge
Post by solar penguin
Post by Charles E Hardwidge
Post by john smith
Post by Agamemnon
No. If RTD had written it 70% would have been soap not substance whereas
with Steve Moffat it's all substance.
Oh happy days! You point out massive plot flaws and give it 10 out of
10. Still as deluded as ever! LOL!
I doubt Smith could explain the workings of an integrated circuit or the
finer points of fibre optic cable transmission but that doesn't stop him
mouthing off on the internet.
Vanity, vanity. Everything is vanity...
I've not been following behind-the-scenes news closely. When has Matt
Smith been mouthing off on the internet about integrated circuits and
fibre optic cable transmission? More importantly, why has he been
doing it?
I was talking about Mr Personality Disorder but if Matt Smith has been doing
it as well...
You have to be careful. That's how rumours start.
--
Charles E Hardwidge
Then be careful what you post.
--
Member - Liberal International This is ***@nl2k.ab.ca Ici ***@nl2k.ab.ca
God, Queen and country! Never Satan President Republic! Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://twitter.com/rootnl2k http://www.facebook.com/dyadallee
Stop Stephen Harper ! on 2 May 2011 vote !
The Doctor
2011-05-02 13:10:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Charles E Hardwidge
Post by john smith
Post by Agamemnon
No. If RTD had written it 70% would have been soap not substance whereas
with Steve Moffat it's all substance.
Oh happy days! You point out massive plot flaws and give it 10 out of 10.
Still as deluded as ever! LOL!
I doubt Smith could explain the workings of an integrated circuit or the
finer points of fibre optic cable transmission but that doesn't stop him
mouthing off on the internet.
Vanity, vanity. Everything is vanity...
--
Charles E Hardwidge
Said Vain Charles.
--
Member - Liberal International This is ***@nl2k.ab.ca Ici ***@nl2k.ab.ca
God, Queen and country! Never Satan President Republic! Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://twitter.com/rootnl2k http://www.facebook.com/dyadallee
Stop Stephen Harper ! on 2 May 2011 vote !
Stephen Wilson
2011-05-02 20:16:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by john smith
Post by Agamemnon
No. If RTD had written it 70% would have been soap not substance whereas
with Steve Moffat it's all substance.
Oh happy days! You point out massive plot flaws and give it 10 out of 10.
Still as deluded as ever! LOL!
Oh yeah. A flimsy plot with aliens that make no sense, loads of soap and gay
references. But Moffatt wrote it so that makes it OK...
James Kuyper
2011-05-01 02:37:24 UTC
Permalink
On 04/30/2011 04:55 PM, Agamemnon wrote:
...
Post by Agamemnon
Amy pregnant for 3 months then not pregnant. Is the Time Lord gestation
period 3 months or less? Still doesn't make sense even if the baby is a Time
Lord. She was with Rory for 2 months while the Doctor was away so that makes
5 months, so why didn't anyone notice her bump? Or could the Master be the
father I wonder.
I took the final sequence as implying that Amy is currently in
Schroedinger's cat-like superposition of two states, one in which she's
pregnant, and in the other, she's not. I think that the birth may still
in the future along her personal time line. However, it only said
"positive" / "negative" - it might have been testing for something other
than pregnancy.
Post by Agamemnon
Is the girl River. Both Amy and River have strawberry blonde/red hair.
The renewed series is starting to have a serious surplus of women
connected to the doctor with mysterious pasts or futures: Jenny, River
Song, Amy, the girl in the space suit, and Amy's daughter. I think it's
safe to assume that the last two are the same person, given the location
where Amy found the picture. However, I suspect that at least two more
of those women are going to be discovered to be the same person, before
this is over; it's quite possible that they're all the same person
(making Amy her own mother would be the trickiest, but not impossible
once you've got time travel involved).

...
Post by Agamemnon
How can Rory remember being an Auton unless he is still an Auton?
What happened to the four people whose lives had not yet been completely
erased at the time of Big Bang II is very thoroughly anomalous, for
every single one of them. You'll have to admit, however, that that was a
highly anomalous position for them to be in. In the simplest of
possibilities, the world would have been recreated, complete, with
everyone but the Doctor restored to their proper places with no memory
of the prior universe. What actually happened was a lot more complicated.
--
James Kuyper
Ross
2011-05-01 04:23:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Kuyper
...
Post by Agamemnon
Amy pregnant for 3 months then not pregnant. Is the Time Lord gestation
period 3 months or less? Still doesn't make sense even if the baby is a Time
Lord. She was with Rory for 2 months while the Doctor was away so that makes
5 months, so why didn't anyone notice her bump? Or could the Master be the
father I wonder.
I took the final sequence as implying that Amy is currently in
Schroedinger's cat-like superposition of two states, one in which she's
pregnant, and in the other, she's not. I think that the birth may still
in the future along her personal time line. However, it only said
"positive" / "negative" - it might have been testing for something other
than pregnancy.
It does *say* Pregnancy on the left in the white bubble. "Amelia
Pond / Full Body Scan in Progress / PREGNANCY" (The rest of the window
is gibberish in small print.) I guess that's not 100% proof, but it's
as close as anything.
James Kuyper
2011-05-01 10:16:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by James Kuyper
...
Post by Agamemnon
Amy pregnant for 3 months then not pregnant. Is the Time Lord gestation
period 3 months or less? Still doesn't make sense even if the baby is a Time
Lord. She was with Rory for 2 months while the Doctor was away so that makes
5 months, so why didn't anyone notice her bump? Or could the Master be the
father I wonder.
I took the final sequence as implying that Amy is currently in
Schroedinger's cat-like superposition of two states, one in which she's
pregnant, and in the other, she's not. I think that the birth may still
in the future along her personal time line. However, it only said
"positive" / "negative" - it might have been testing for something other
than pregnancy.
It does *say* Pregnancy on the left in the white bubble. "Amelia
Pond / Full Body Scan in Progress / PREGNANCY" (The rest of the window
is gibberish in small print.) I guess that's not 100% proof, but it's
as close as anything.
I missed that - it flashed by too quickly for me to notice.
--
James Kuyper
Tim Bruening
2017-05-06 21:36:07 UTC
Permalink
Amy had told the Doctor of her possible pregnancy because she was worried that being conceived on the TARDIS might cause the baby to have three heads or a Time Head.
James Kuyper
2011-05-01 10:27:35 UTC
Permalink
...
Post by James Kuyper
Post by Agamemnon
Is the girl River. Both Amy and River have strawberry blonde/red hair.
The renewed series is starting to have a serious surplus of women
connected to the doctor with mysterious pasts or futures: Jenny, River
Song, Amy, the girl in the space suit, and Amy's daughter. I think it's
safe to assume that the last two are the same person, given the location
where Amy found the picture. However, I suspect that at least two more
of those women are going to be discovered to be the same person, before
this is over; it's quite possible that they're all the same person
(making Amy her own mother would be the trickiest, but not impossible
once you've got time travel involved).
Re-reading that after a good night's sleep, I think I went a little too
far with my speculation there.
We know how Jenny came into existence; it's inconsistent with her being
Amy's daughter.
Jenny is genetically Gallifryean, and the girl who was in the spacesuit
also apparently has at least some Gallifryean ancestry. But if either
Amy or Song had Gallifryean physiology, the Doctor should have noticed
and should have commented on the fact, by now.
The adult actresses involved are sufficiently different in appearance
that connecting any two of them would seem to call for Gallifryean
regeneration.
There's still too many bizarre possibilities open, however.
--
James Kuyper
Duggy
2011-05-01 12:30:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Kuyper
Jenny is genetically Gallifryean, and the girl who was in the spacesuit
also apparently has at least some Gallifryean ancestry.
No, we know she can regenerate. And we know that the Timelords gained
that power at some point.

Could the child be a human who gains it?

===
= DUG.
===
Ryan P.
2011-05-01 23:03:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Duggy
Post by James Kuyper
Jenny is genetically Gallifryean, and the girl who was in the spacesuit
also apparently has at least some Gallifryean ancestry.
No, we know she can regenerate. And we know that the Timelords gained
that power at some point.
Could the child be a human who gains it?
Or, could Amy have been correct in her fears about the effects of time
travel on her baby? Maybe there is something about the vortex that
effected the baby, and basically gave it the same powers as the Time Lords?


Maybe... that's how the Time Lords got the power in the first place?
Happily "normal" aliens, until one day, a few mothers-to-be were exposed
to a time vortex?
Duggy
2011-05-01 23:51:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Kuyper
Jenny is genetically Gallifryean, and the girl who was in the spacesuit
also apparently has at least some Gallifryean ancestry.
No, we know she can regenerate.  And we know that the Timelords gained
that power at some point.
Could the child be a human who gains it?
  Or, could Amy have been correct in her fears about the effects of time
travel on her baby?  Maybe there is something about the vortex that
effected the baby, and basically gave it the same powers as the Time Lords?
That's what I'm saying.
  Maybe... that's how the Time Lords got the power in the first place?
Happily "normal" aliens, until one day, a few mothers-to-be were exposed
to a time vortex?
Is there a canon explanation?

===
= DUG.
===
James Kuyper
2011-05-02 00:10:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Duggy
Post by James Kuyper
Jenny is genetically Gallifryean, and the girl who was in the spacesuit
also apparently has at least some Gallifryean ancestry.
No, we know she can regenerate. �And we know that the Timelords gained
that power at some point.
...
Post by Duggy
Is there a canon explanation?
No, but there are several non-canonical ones. See:
<http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Regeneration>.
--
James Kuyper
The Doctor
2011-05-02 00:36:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Duggy
Jenny is genetically Gallifryean, and the girl who was in the spacesui=
t
also apparently has at least some Gallifryean ancestry.
No, we know she can regenerate. =A0And we know that the Timelords gaine=
d
that power at some point.
Could the child be a human who gains it?
=A0 Or, could Amy have been correct in her fears about the effects of tim=
e
travel on her baby? =A0Maybe there is something about the vortex that
effected the baby, and basically gave it the same powers as the Time Lord=
s?
That's what I'm saying.
=A0 Maybe... that's how the Time Lords got the power in the first place?
Happily "normal" aliens, until one day, a few mothers-to-be were exposed
to a time vortex?
Is there a canon explanation?
=3D=3D=3D
=3D DUG.
=3D=3D=3D
Darned if I know.
--
Member - Liberal International This is ***@nl2k.ab.ca Ici ***@nl2k.ab.ca
God, Queen and country! Never Satan President Republic! Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://twitter.com/rootnl2k http://www.facebook.com/dyadallee
Stop Stephen Harper ! on 2 May 2011 vote Harper out and Ignatieff in!
China Blue Veins
2011-05-02 02:01:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Duggy
Post by James Kuyper
Jenny is genetically Gallifryean, and the girl who was in the spacesuit
also apparently has at least some Gallifryean ancestry.
No, we know she can regenerate.  And we know that the Timelords gained
that power at some point.
Could the child be a human who gains it?
  Or, could Amy have been correct in her fears about the effects of time
travel on her baby?  Maybe there is something about the vortex that
effected the baby, and basically gave it the same powers as the Time Lords?
That's what I'm saying.
  Maybe... that's how the Time Lords got the power in the first place?
Happily "normal" aliens, until one day, a few mothers-to-be were exposed
to a time vortex?
Is there a canon explanation?
There was something about making Gallifreyean children stare into the vortex.
That might have differentiated them into Timelads (-lasses) and the rest of the
Gallireyeans.
--
Damn the living - It's a lovely life. I'm whoever you want me to be.
Silver silverware - Where is the love? At least I can stay in character.
Oval swimming pool - Where is the love? Annoying Usenet one post at a time.
Damn the living - It's a lovely life. Why does Harmony have blue veins?
pippa.moran
2011-05-01 12:05:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Kuyper
...
Post by Agamemnon
Amy pregnant for 3 months then not pregnant. Is the Time Lord gestation
period 3 months or less? Still doesn't make sense even if the baby is a Time
Lord. She was with Rory for 2 months while the Doctor was away so that makes
5 months, so why didn't anyone notice her bump? Or could the Master be the
father I wonder.
I took the final sequence as implying that Amy is currently in
Schroedinger's cat-like superposition of two states, one in which she's
pregnant, and in the other, she's not.
Probably not a good idea to mention cats and pregnancy together when
replying to Aggy...
China Blue Veins
2011-05-01 03:52:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Agamemnon
Amy pregnant for 3 months then not pregnant. Is the Time Lord gestation
period 3 months or less? Still doesn't make sense even if the baby is a Time
Lord. She was with Rory for 2 months while the Doctor was away so that makes
5 months, so why didn't anyone notice her bump? Or could the Master be the
father I wonder.
Did Time-ladies have wombs?
Post by Agamemnon
suit to put the girl in. And why did they need a space suit when they could
have put all the life support technology in anything they wonted since a
NASA space suit doesn't do anything different from a heated deep sea diving
suit.
Diving suits of that era didn't have a pressure difference across the suit,
which is where most of the bulk and mechanics of a space suit are. Also they're
cooled not heated.
Post by Agamemnon
How can Rory remember being an Auton unless he is still an Auton?
Rory and Amy retained partial memories from before the rebooted universe even
though the reboot reconstructed their human bodies
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Ross
2011-05-01 04:19:10 UTC
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Post by Agamemnon
Good acting all round.
Lots of stuff that doesn't seem to add up which hopefully will be explained
later.
River mentions once again that she's living her life with the Doctor in
reverse, so when did the Doctor give her his supped up sonic screwdriver
which she said he was supposed to have given her during their last time
together, which has to be in the Doctor's past? It can't have been Tennant's
Doctor because she didn't recognise him and thought he looked younger and we
all know he looked the same before he regenerated. If it was Matt Smith's
Doctor then why weren't we shown the moment, and it obviously must have
happened in the Doctor's time line before the story with the Weeping Angels
but the 11th Doctor hasn't seen her before that event.
I'd been assuming all along that it's the tenth doctor who gives river
the Sonic. I assume it happened between the third and fourth special.
River *does* recognize him, nothing she says even HINTS otherwise (In
fact, at the time, one of the things people kept harping on was that
River *recognizes him on sight*), but she *does* note that he looks
much "younger". Also, of course, the sonic he gives River is clearly
based on the tenth doctor's sonic: its settings are red and blue,
without a hint of green.

No, I think that far and a way the most straightforward explanation is
that during the missing time between the third and fourth special, the
Doctor is feeling melancholy over his impending death, and so he goes
to someone who he knows has seen what's next: he visits River. He's
haggard from the loss of Donna from warning of his impending death,
and from his recent brush with the dark side as the "Time Lord
Triumphant". This is why River considers him older than in Silence in
the Library: in the library, she sees a face he recognises, but she
sees him before he's had his spirit crushed by the events of Journey's
End and Waters of Mars. And, of course, he already knows what's going
to happen to happen to River, so he gives her his newly built two-tone
sonic -- one which he just recently built for this purpose, though
while building it, it occurs to him that if he just switched it to
green, he could get the best of both worlds without having to keep
switching back and forth between red and blue.
Post by Agamemnon
On top of that the Doctor mentions to River an adventure she's hasn't yet
been on when he's 200 years older so that doesn't add up either if every
time she meets him, he's younger. And how does she end up back in jail for
the Weeping Angels story if she's just escaped from it for this one?
I payed close attention to this scene. I don't think the Doctor
actually mentions any adventures she *has* been on. He "remembers"
things that she asks about, but doesn't volunteer any. Which leaves
open the possibility that the future-doctor is lying -- we know he's
misleading all of them in this scene.
Post by Agamemnon
Amy pregnant for 3 months then not pregnant. Is the Time Lord gestation
period 3 months or less? Still doesn't make sense even if the baby is a Time
Lord. She was with Rory for 2 months while the Doctor was away so that makes
5 months, so why didn't anyone notice her bump? Or could the Master be the
father I wonder.
The pictures demonstrate that Amy's had her memory manipulated. Given
that Moffat is the first showrunner who likes to use Time Travel as a
story element rather than just a mechanism to deliver the characters
to the plot, it wouldn't surprise me if Future-Doctor or the Silence
whisked Amy off somewhere during the "Three Months Later" bit.

Also, there's no reason to think Amy's five months pregnant at all. If
she'd been two months pregnant at the beginning of the episode, she
would be past the point of just *thinking* she was pregnant. She'd be
at the stage where you start seeing an obstetrician. Even Amy
wouldn't wait *two months* before telling Rory. No, it only makes
sense if we assume that she's no more than a few days late at the
time. Which means that she's no more than three and a half months
pregnant at the end of the episode if she actually lived through just
those three months.

But of course, now Amy's in some kind of quantum superposition where
she's both pregnant and not pregnant. And I think I just worked out
why... (I'll get to that in a minute)
Post by Agamemnon
How can Rory remember being an Auton unless he is still an Auton?
How could Rory remember dying in the Silurian base unless he was still
a human? When the Doctor created the new universe with the Pandorica,
it was created based on the old universe as recorded in the pandorica.
The Rory who is created in the new universe is based on the old Rory.
So even though he's human, and lived his normal life, and never even
met the Doctor until his wedding day, he, like everything else, was
created by extrapolating from a universe which contained a Rory who
traveled with the Doctor, and who died in the near future, and who was
a plastic centurion in roman-occupied Britton.


But all that leads me to my Grand Unified Theory.

See, I've been working for some time on a story about time travel, and
it's got me all thinking about possible ways causality could work in
the face of the possibility of changing history And I applied that to
what we've seen, and here's what I got...

We can conclude from the events of The Lodger that the Silence is
trying to develop TARDIS-like technology. I believe that the Silence
are trying to, essentially, elevate themselves to the position once
held by the Time Lords (the Kryllitane had similar ideas). And I'm
going to guess that part of their plan involves trying to *create* a
time lord for themselves.

Now, we know that the Silence had something to do with last season's
destruction of the universe (THough I've always been partial to the
idea that we've been misled, and the destruction of the universe was
actually orchestrated by *enemies* of the Silence, attemtping a
"scorched earth" policy. They don't say "Silence will win", but rather
"Silence will *fall*". As Rory said,
"Rome fell." But anyway...). I suggest that the actual goal of the
destruction of the universe *was Amy Pond*. That crack in her bedroom,
her travels with the Doctor, her ability to affect the recreation of
the universe, I suggest that all of this was engineered as part of
some process (which we haven't seen come to fruition yet), which will
eventually lead Amy to give birth to a Time Lord baby.

Hang on, because here's where it gets *really* complicated.

Thanks to the intervention of the Silence, Amy gives birth to a Time
Lord baby. I'm going to guess that this baby is born in the year most
overwhelmingly appropriate: 1963. The Silence steal the child to
control its development, eventually forcing it into that space suit,
to protect it or perhaps to contain it.

But, of course, this past episode makes everything go pear-shaped: the
domination of earth by the Silence is interrupted in 1969 thanks to
the Doctor's intervention. So by 2011, they're no longer in any
position to manipulate Amy's destiny.

And as a result, there's now a paradox going on in Amy's uterus. If
the Silence wins and maintains control, Amy is pregnant with a time
lord baby. But if they're defeated in the 70s, then she's not. But if
she's not, then there's no child to be in the space suit. And no calls
to Nixon. And therefore no Doctor discovering the Silence. And
therefore no embedded hypnotic suggestion in the moon landing footage.
And therefore the Silence maintains control. And gets Amy pregnant
with the spawn-of-time.

And so the result is that Amy's now carrying Schroedinger's Baby: she
is, as the TARDIS reports, both pregnant and not-pregnant at the same
time.

So who shot the Doctor? Well, one way things can turn out is that the
Doctor defeats the Silence. But, of course, if the Doctor hadn't
summoned Rory. Amy, River, Carlton and himself to Utah to die at them,
they'd never have gone back to 1969 and started their war against the
Silence. So the Doctor knows he has to sacrifice himself. So I
suggest that he set the whole thing up. I won;t hazard a guess who
actually pulled the trigger. Could be the Doctor himself, crossing his
own time-stream. Could be River, though that seems sort of strange
(Why would River be in a 51st century prison for a 21st century
crime?).

ANyway, just some fun speculation. I'd be surprised if what happens
follows closely to what i've said, but I'd also be surprised if they
don't hit one or two similar points.
Fred
2011-05-01 04:43:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross
Hang on, because here's where it gets *really* complicated.
Thanks to the intervention of the Silence, Amy gives birth to a Time
Lord baby. I'm going to guess that this baby is born in the year most
overwhelmingly appropriate: 1963. The Silence steal the child to
control its development, eventually forcing it into that space suit,
to protect it or perhaps to contain it.
BTW Alex Kingston was born in 1963.
Charles E Hardwidge
2011-05-01 05:58:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross
ANyway, just some fun speculation. I'd be surprised if what happens
follows closely to what i've said, but I'd also be surprised if they
don't hit one or two similar points.
As plausible as anything. I don't bother with that shit but it's something
to read.

The time travel thing is a bit overdone. Yes, the Doctor has a TARDIS. We
know.
--
Charles E Hardwidge
The Doctor
2011-05-01 12:45:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross
ANyway, just some fun speculation. I'd be surprised if what happens
follows closely to what i've said, but I'd also be surprised if they
don't hit one or two similar points.
As plausible as anything. I don't bother with that but it's something
to read.
The time travel thing is a bit overdone. Yes, the Doctor has a TARDIS. We
know.
--
Charles E Hardwidge
Remnd me one day to tell you why the USA did not develop an SST.
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Duggy
2011-05-01 12:28:23 UTC
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Post by Ross
I'd been assuming all along that it's the tenth doctor who gives river
the Sonic. I assume it happened between the third and fourth special.
Nah, he's too adventurous then, they'd have had a fling. During his
dying travels when he would have been in the mood to say goodbye.
Post by Ross
River *does* recognize him, nothing she says even HINTS otherwise (In
fact, at the time, one of the things people kept harping on was that
River *recognizes him on sight*), but she *does* note that he looks
much "younger".
Of course they try to cover that in her second appearance by saying
she knows how to recognise him in any body.
Post by Ross
 Also, of course, the sonic he gives River is clearly
based on the tenth doctor's sonic: its settings are red and blue,
without a hint of green.
True.
Post by Ross
No, I think that far and a way the most straightforward explanation is
that during the missing time between the third and fourth special, the
Doctor is feeling melancholy over his impending death, and so he goes
to someone who he knows has seen what's next: he visits River.
At that point he was trying to live, not preparing for death.
Post by Ross
I payed close attention  to this scene. I don't think the Doctor
actually mentions any adventures she *has* been on.  He "remembers"
things that she asks about, but doesn't volunteer any. Which leaves
open the possibility that the future-doctor is lying -- we know he's
misleading all of them in this scene.
Interesting.
Post by Ross
Thanks to the intervention of the Silence, Amy gives birth to a Time
Lord baby. I'm going to guess that this baby is born in the year most
overwhelmingly appropriate: 1963. The Silence steal the child to
control its development, eventually forcing it into that space suit,
to protect it or perhaps to contain it.
Unless someone else develops the suit to protect her from the Silents.
Post by Ross
So who shot the Doctor?
River Song with her green energy gun.

===
= DUG.
===
Ross
2011-05-01 15:07:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross
I'd been assuming all along that it's the tenth doctor who gives river
the Sonic. I assume it happened between the third and fourth special.
Nah, he's too adventurous then, they'd have had a fling.  During his
dying travels when he would have been in the mood to say goodbye.
That's a good point. The idea of him going back at the end of the
Special Season had fixed in my mind before the Sarah Jane Adventures
episode where he reveals that those travels had included *all* of his
previous companions. In light of that, and in light of the fact that
what we *did* see was him going on a little crusade helping a bunch of
them out, I could easily believe that it was during his dying travels
that he decided to do the second half of "saving" River.

Also, I neglected to mention, another part of why I think he did this
some time during the Specials is that when River reacts to Donna with
the whole "I'm so sorry" bit, that seems to suggest that The Doctor
told her about Donna while the pain was still fresh for him.
Of course they try to cover that in her second appearance by saying
she knows how to recognise him in any body.
Yeah, but even accepting that she would recognize him in any body, it
seems like if she sees him in a body she hasn't seen before, she'd
recognize him, but also instantly know whereabouts in his own life he
was.
Post by Ross
No, I think that far and a way the most straightforward explanation is
that during the missing time between the third and fourth special, the
Doctor is feeling melancholy over his impending death, and so he goes
to someone who he knows has seen what's next: he visits River.
At that point he was trying to live, not preparing for death.
By the end of it, sort-of, but the whole thing had very much the feel
of the Doctor going through a sort of bipolar episode. At the end of
Waters of Mars, he's very sad and broken, and at the beginning of End
of Time, he's moved on to a kind of manic denial.
Post by Ross
Thanks to the intervention of the Silence, Amy gives birth to a Time
Lord baby. I'm going to guess that this baby is born in the year most
overwhelmingly appropriate: 1963. The Silence steal the child to
control its development, eventually forcing it into that space suit,
to protect it or perhaps to contain it.
Unless someone else develops the suit to protect her from the Silents.
I don't see any evidence of that. Interesting twist if it happened.
River Song with her green energy gun.
I will note that the green energy gun blast looked a lot like the
weapons the Silence were firing in the last fight scene.

Also...

The Silent who confronts Amy in the White House tells her that she
must tell the doctor the thing he can not know. The show wanted to
imply this had to do with his impending death. But here I have two
concerns: first, how would they know? there's no evidence that the
Silence have succeeded at Time Travel yet (though we know they're
pursuing it). And if they did have that foreknowledge, it seems like
they must be much more capable than this episode implies, so how were
they so easily beaten?

Secondly, Amy *doesn't* tell the Doctor of his impending death. The
whole climax hinges on the fact that the Silence's power of suggestion
always works -- even our heroes aren't immune to it. If that's the
case, how did Amy resist?

It makes me think that maybe she *did* do what they said, and the
thing the Silent wanted her to tell the Doctor was actually about her
pregnancy.

In fact, maybe my theory is slightly backwards. Perhaps, like last
season, the Doctor is getting played like a fiddle. Amy *wasn't*
pregnant to begin with, and the Silence *put the idea in her head that
she was pregnant, and that she wanted to tell the Doctor before she
told Rory*. And then when they kidnapped her later, it wasn't to use
as a hostage, but rather to do something medical to her that would
cause her to end up with Schroedinger's baby, with the idea that this
would get the Doctor involved in some way that would lead to their end
goal of Amy having a time-headed baby
Duggy
2011-05-01 23:49:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross
Also, I neglected to mention, another part of why I think he did this
some time during the Specials is that when River reacts to Donna with
the whole "I'm so sorry" bit, that seems to suggest that The Doctor
told her about Donna while the pain was still fresh for him.
Good point.
Post by Ross
Post by Duggy
Of course they try to cover that in her second appearance by saying
she knows how to recognise him in any body.
Yeah, but even accepting that she would recognize him in any body, it
seems like if she sees him in a body she hasn't seen before, she'd
recognize him, but also instantly know whereabouts in his own life he
was.
Agreed. I didn't say it worked, I said they tried it.
Post by Ross
Post by Duggy
Unless someone else develops the suit to protect her from the Silents.
I don't see any evidence of that. Interesting twist if it happened.
Thing is sometimes when the characters make guesses we take them as
facts - the writer explaining stuff.

Sometime the writer is planting red herrings.

Could be the Silents made it for her. Could be someone else.
Post by Ross
Post by Duggy
River Song with her green energy gun.
I will note that the green energy gun blast looked a lot like the
weapons the Silence were firing in the last fight scene.
I thought they were using lightning.
Post by Ross
Also...
It makes me think that maybe she *did* do what they said, and the
thing the Silent wanted her to tell the Doctor was actually about her
pregnancy.
Agreed.

===
= DUG.
===
Duggy
2011-05-01 12:18:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Agamemnon
Good acting all round.
Lots of stuff that doesn't seem to add up which hopefully will be explained
later.
I'm sure some will.
Post by Agamemnon
River mentions once again that she's living her life with the Doctor in
reverse,
I know. This is new and sucks.
Post by Agamemnon
so when did the Doctor give her his supped up sonic screwdriver
which she said he was supposed to have given her during their last time
together, which has to be in the Doctor's past? It can't have been Tennant's
Doctor because she didn't recognise him
Yes, she did.
Post by Agamemnon
On top of that the Doctor mentions to River an adventure she's hasn't yet
been on when he's 200 years older so that doesn't add up either if every
time she meets him, he's younger.
That's because there were 2 Doctors in this time period. The Doctor
she was synced with was ours, not the older one.

Doesn't explain the need for the diary any other time than that,
though.
Post by Agamemnon
And how does she end up back in jail for
the Weeping Angels story if she's just escaped from it for this one?
The Doctor took her back (at her request) at the end of the episode.
Post by Agamemnon
Amy pregnant for 3 months then not pregnant. Is the Time Lord gestation
period 3 months or less?
The TARDIS test clearly showed that she was in flux between being
pregnant and not being pregnant.
Post by Agamemnon
Still doesn't make sense even if the baby is a Time
Lord.
I think she's going to absorb the Eye of Harmony or something and turn
the baby into a Timelord.
Post by Agamemnon
She was with Rory for 2 months while the Doctor was away so that makes
5 months, so why didn't anyone notice her bump? Or could the Master be the
father I wonder.
Why are you adding these numbers together?
Post by Agamemnon
Is the girl River. Both Amy and River have strawberry blonde/red hair.
I doubt it.
Post by Agamemnon
Why are we given the impression that the Silence has been killed off when we
are told the brought about the moon landings just so they could have a space
suit to put the girl in.
That was what the Doctor believed.
Post by Agamemnon
And why did they need a space suit when they could
have put all the life support technology in anything they wonted since a
NASA space suit doesn't do anything different from a heated deep sea diving
suit.
True. Any they made humans develop the tech they needed. The suit
was all kinds of alien tech. The sort of thing the Doctor or River
Song might make.
Post by Agamemnon
How can Rory remember being an Auton unless he is still an Auton?
Because the universe was recreated from Amy's wish. She remembered
him (and loved him for) being an Auton, so that stayed.
Post by Agamemnon
How can the device the Doctor implanted into Amys hand still be transmitting
her voice after the Silence removed it?
Because it was bioencoded or something.
Post by Agamemnon
When did Nixon start taping all of his conversations in the Oval Office.
Before or after the Doctor suggests it July 1969?
Nixon made it clear in the interview with Frost that Kennedy recorded
all the c