Discussion:
S07E04 The Power Of Three
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Agamemnon
2012-09-22 21:01:48 UTC
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Good story. Good performances. Much better than last week.

Still problems with the 45 minute format, mainly due to all the stupid
prancing around at the start of the episode (the monologue and painting the
fence etc.) taking all the time which could have been used to much better
effect by extending the story and developing it in different directions. If
they had one and half hours to fill then it might have been ok, but the time
is not being used wisely. They don't do it like that in US dramas.

Once again everything is brought to an end in a few seconds with a flick of
the Doctor's sonic screwdriver instead of a more considered solution.

Nevertheless this story and the whole of this series so far has been more
reminiscent of classic Doctor Who than any other series since 2005.

Homage to the TVM with the Doctor warning Amy to stay away from his hearts
but lots of time wasted on unnecessary prancing as a result of one of the
Doctors heart's stopping.

I wonder if we're going to be seeing more of the Brigadier's daughter in
future stories?

Oh, and did those flashing lights in the sky last night bring any small
black cubes with them?


10/10
solar penguin
2012-09-22 21:12:13 UTC
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Post by Agamemnon
Once again everything is brought to an end in a few seconds with a flick of
the Doctor's sonic screwdriver instead of a more considered solution.
And even though the Doctor did restart the hearts of all the collapsed
people, they'd been stopped for several minutes. That could mean
millions of brain damaged people across the world!
Post by Agamemnon
Nevertheless this story and the whole of this series so far has been more
reminiscent of classic Doctor Who than any other series since 2005.
Interesting. I thought it was more reminiscent of RTD-era Doctor Who
than anything since 2010. But in a good way.
Post by Agamemnon
Homage to the TVM with the Doctor warning Amy to stay away from his hearts
but lots of time wasted on unnecessary prancing as a result of one of the
Doctors heart's stopping.
I'm still wondering what a defibrillator was doing just lying around
unused in a hospital corridor with people collapsing from heart
failure all over the place. Talk about NHS inefficiency!
Agamemnon
2012-09-22 21:59:41 UTC
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Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Once again everything is brought to an end in a few seconds with a flick of
the Doctor's sonic screwdriver instead of a more considered solution.
And even though the Doctor did restart the hearts of all the collapsed
people, they'd been stopped for several minutes. That could mean
millions of brain damaged people across the world!
They must all be politicians.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Nevertheless this story and the whole of this series so far has been more
reminiscent of classic Doctor Who than any other series since 2005.
Interesting. I thought it was more reminiscent of RTD-era Doctor Who
than anything since 2010. But in a good way.
Post by Agamemnon
Homage to the TVM with the Doctor warning Amy to stay away from his hearts
but lots of time wasted on unnecessary prancing as a result of one of the
Doctors heart's stopping.
I'm still wondering what a defibrillator was doing just lying around
unused in a hospital corridor with people collapsing from heart
failure all over the place. Talk about NHS inefficiency!
Still wondering why the elevator to the stars just happened to be located in
the hospital that Rory worked in.
Ross
2012-09-23 04:35:13 UTC
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Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Once again everything is brought to an end in a few seconds with a flick of
the Doctor's sonic screwdriver instead of a more considered solution.
And even though the Doctor did restart the hearts of all the collapsed
people, they'd been stopped for several minutes.  That could mean
millions of brain damaged people across the world!
I was very pleased that the news clip at the end of the episode
mentions that hospitals are still overloaded due to the billions of
people around the world who, even with their hearts restarted, still
need medical treatment and continuing care to recover from their
ordeal.
An tSin Gorm
2012-09-28 07:52:31 UTC
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Post by Ross
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Once again everything is brought to an end in a few seconds with a flick of
the Doctor's sonic screwdriver instead of a more considered solution.
And even though the Doctor did restart the hearts of all the collapsed
people, they'd been stopped for several minutes.  That could mean
millions of brain damaged people across the world!
I was very pleased that the news clip at the end of the episode
mentions that hospitals are still overloaded due to the billions of
people around the world who, even with their hearts restarted, still
need medical treatment and continuing care to recover from their
ordeal.
I dislike television diseases where people with blisterred and pustulent skin
are healed, and then suddenly their skin is clear without even scars.
--
My name Indigo Montoya. \\ Annoying Usenet one post at a time.
You flamed my father. \' At least I can stay in character.
Prepare to be spanked. // When you look into the void,
Stop posting that! `/ the void looks into you, and fulfills you.
TB
2014-12-06 00:13:34 UTC
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Post by Ross
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Once again everything is brought to an end in a few seconds with a flick of
the Doctor's sonic screwdriver instead of a more considered solution.
And even though the Doctor did restart the hearts of all the collapsed
people, they'd been stopped for several minutes.  That could mean
millions of brain damaged people across the world!
I was very pleased that the news clip at the end of the episode
mentions that hospitals are still overloaded due to the billions of
people around the world who, even with their hearts restarted, still
need medical treatment and continuing care to recover from their
ordeal.
I expect an epidemic of medically related bankruptcies in the US, leading to the Great Recession?
Tim Bruening
2017-01-09 04:58:14 UTC
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Post by Ross
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Once again everything is brought to an end in a few seconds with a flick of
the Doctor's sonic screwdriver instead of a more considered solution.
And even though the Doctor did restart the hearts of all the collapsed
people, they'd been stopped for several minutes.  That could mean
millions of brain damaged people across the world!
I was very pleased that the news clip at the end of the episode
mentions that hospitals are still overloaded due to the billions of
people around the world who, even with their hearts restarted, still
need medical treatment and continuing care to recover from their
ordeal.
Health care expenses will soar worldwide? The British Parliament will need to boost the NHS budget! The US Congress will have to Obamacare subsidies!
The Doctor
2017-01-09 15:14:32 UTC
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Post by Agamemnon
Post by Ross
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Once again everything is brought to an end in a few seconds with a
flick of
Post by Ross
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
the Doctor's sonic screwdriver instead of a more considered solution.
And even though the Doctor did restart the hearts of all the collapsed
people, they'd been stopped for several minutes.  That could mean
millions of brain damaged people across the world!
I was very pleased that the news clip at the end of the episode
mentions that hospitals are still overloaded due to the billions of
people around the world who, even with their hearts restarted, still
need medical treatment and continuing care to recover from their
ordeal.
Health care expenses will soar worldwide? The British Parliament will
need to boost the NHS budget! The US Congress will have to Obamacare
subsidies!
IS Peter still around?
--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca
God,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism
Birthdate 29 Jan 1969 Redhill Surrey England
Tim Bruening
2017-01-10 04:40:24 UTC
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Post by Ross
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Once again everything is brought to an end in a few seconds with a flick of
the Doctor's sonic screwdriver instead of a more considered solution.
And even though the Doctor did restart the hearts of all the collapsed
people, they'd been stopped for several minutes.  That could mean
millions of brain damaged people across the world!
I was very pleased that the news clip at the end of the episode
mentions that hospitals are still overloaded due to the billions of
people around the world who, even with their hearts restarted, still
need medical treatment and continuing care to recover from their
ordeal.
Bernie Sanders: We must set up Single Payer Health Insurance to cope with the cubes' victims!
The Doctor
2017-01-10 16:18:10 UTC
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Post by Agamemnon
Post by Ross
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Once again everything is brought to an end in a few seconds with a
flick of
Post by Ross
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
the Doctor's sonic screwdriver instead of a more considered solution.
And even though the Doctor did restart the hearts of all the collapsed
people, they'd been stopped for several minutes.  That could mean
millions of brain damaged people across the world!
I was very pleased that the news clip at the end of the episode
mentions that hospitals are still overloaded due to the billions of
people around the world who, even with their hearts restarted, still
need medical treatment and continuing care to recover from their
ordeal.
Bernie Sanders: We must set up Single Payer Health Insurance to cope with the cubes' victims!
Junking up with obsession.
--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca
God,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism
Birthdate 29 Jan 1969 Redhill Surrey England
TB
2016-09-28 22:29:16 UTC
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Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Once again everything is brought to an end in a few seconds with a flick of
the Doctor's sonic screwdriver instead of a more considered solution.
And even though the Doctor did restart the hearts of all the collapsed
people, they'd been stopped for several minutes. That could mean
millions of brain damaged people across the world!
Post by Agamemnon
Nevertheless this story and the whole of this series so far has been more
reminiscent of classic Doctor Who than any other series since 2005.
Interesting. I thought it was more reminiscent of RTD-era Doctor Who
than anything since 2010. But in a good way.
Post by Agamemnon
Homage to the TVM with the Doctor warning Amy to stay away from his hearts
but lots of time wasted on unnecessary prancing as a result of one of the
Doctors heart's stopping.
I'm still wondering what a defibrillator was doing just lying around
unused in a hospital corridor with people collapsing from heart
failure all over the place. Talk about NHS inefficiency!
Cue a horror commercial against Single Payer Health Care!
TB
2016-09-28 22:30:38 UTC
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Post by solar penguin
I'm still wondering what a defibrillator was doing just lying around
unused in a hospital corridor with people collapsing from heart
failure all over the place. Talk about NHS inefficiency!
Fanwank: All the medical staff were suffering from heart attacks, so couldn't do anything!
Charles E. Hardwidge
2012-09-22 21:14:34 UTC
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10/10
I quit scoring DW once it got so bad it broke my scoring scheme and I ended
up giving the show a minus number.

More on the power of three, it's significance in Western and Eastern
philosophy (which few if any spot), and a trot through the aesthetics if I
can be bothered to write it up although from what you say the episode title
looks gimmicky like "let's Kill Hitler" than a serious stab at anything.
--
Charles E. Hardwidge
Agamemnon
2012-09-22 22:01:47 UTC
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Post by Charles E. Hardwidge
10/10
I quit scoring DW once it got so bad it broke my scoring scheme and I ended
up giving the show a minus number.
More on the power of three, it's significance in Western and Eastern
philosophy (which few if any spot), and a trot through the aesthetics if I
can be bothered to write it up although from what you say the episode title
looks gimmicky like "let's Kill Hitler" than a serious stab at anything.
It's a play on mathematics. Cubed is the power of three.

It was also the last episode filmed which featured Amy and Rory.
Post by Charles E. Hardwidge
--
Charles E. Hardwidge
The Doctor
2012-09-22 22:03:25 UTC
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Agamemnon <***@hello.to.no_spam> wrote:

: "Charles E. Hardwidge" <***@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
: news:k3l9o8$ki8$***@dont-email.me...
: > "Agamemnon" <***@hello.to.NO_SPAM> wrote in message
: > news:***@eclipse.net.uk...
: >
: >> 10/10
: >
: > I quit scoring DW once it got so bad it broke my scoring scheme and I
: > ended
: > up giving the show a minus number.
: >
: > More on the power of three, it's significance in Western and Eastern
: > philosophy (which few if any spot), and a trot through the aesthetics if I
: > can be bothered to write it up although from what you say the episode
: > title
: > looks gimmicky like "let's Kill Hitler" than a serious stab at anything.
: >

: It's a play on mathematics. Cubed is the power of three.

Who does not understand that?

: It was also the last episode filmed which featured Amy and Rory.

: > --
: > Charles E. Hardwidge
--
Member - Liberal International This is ***@nl2k.ab.ca Ici ***@nl2k.ab.ca
God,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k
USA petition to dissolve the Republic and vote to disoolve it in November 2012
Mike Hall
2012-09-22 22:53:20 UTC
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Post by The Doctor
: It's a play on mathematics. Cubed is the power of three.
Who does not understand that?
Kids and people who aren't good at mathematics?


Mike HAll
Charles E. Hardwidge
2012-09-22 22:56:46 UTC
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Post by Agamemnon
Post by Charles E. Hardwidge
10/10
I quit scoring DW once it got so bad it broke my scoring scheme and I
ended up giving the show a minus number.
More on the power of three, it's significance in Western and Eastern
philosophy (which few if any spot), and a trot through the aesthetics if
I can be bothered to write it up although from what you say the episode
title looks gimmicky like "let's Kill Hitler" than a serious stab at
anything.
It's a play on mathematics. Cubed is the power of three.
It was also the last episode filmed which featured Amy and Rory.
I finished watching the show a few minutes ago and caught that. Okay, a
little clever but the exposition was too open to mean anything so was
problematic as a narrative.

The plot needed focus and there was too much rushing around which took time
away from exploring the core idea. The core idea was also watered down by
Rory's father and Kate Stewart making "the power of five" a more appropriate
title but that would be a little naff.

The actors performances looked better and were better handled than they have
been in previous shows although marred by rushing and camerawork. Some of
the timing with Kate was badly paced and the Doc stumbled over depth of
field in one of the closeups. otoh, anyone getting Steven Berkhoff to move
along faster is doing the world a favour.

A better focused script would've given the story more power and a chance to
better explore the theme but overall this episode was one of the better put
together shows.
--
Charles E. Hardwidge
j***@arcade.demon.co.uk
2012-09-23 01:15:27 UTC
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The "odd items lying around for ages while people start
treating them as commonplace objects until they wake up"
bit was bugging me all the way through as I was sure I'd
seen that plot device seomwhere else.

Suddenly remembered a few minutes ago: Pratchett's
Reaper Man where "eggs" turn up out of nowhere and
people start collecting them as trinkets and then
forgetting about them until they hatch into supermarket
trollies.

JGH
solar penguin
2012-09-23 01:34:08 UTC
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Post by Charles E. Hardwidge
A better focused script would've given the story more power and a chance to
better explore the theme but overall this episode was one of the better put
together shows.
I've said it before but Chris Chibnall's writing is surprisingly good
at small-scale, intimate character studies.

There's a rare example of his early, pre-TW, pre-DW work on
YouTube:


(Keep you ears peeled for a brief DW reference in Part 2.)

Unfortunately most of his DW/TW scripts have been action-packed epics
that just aren't suited to his writing style. It's good to see him
finally writing to his strengths in this episode, with the emphasis on
Amy and Rory's characters and background.

The only trouble is, it all goes downhill once the cubes are activated
and he's got to do an action-adventure plot after all, with just half
an episode to fit it in.
Ross
2012-09-23 04:37:26 UTC
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Post by Charles E. Hardwidge
Post by Agamemnon
Post by Charles E. Hardwidge
10/10
I quit scoring DW once it got so bad it broke my scoring scheme and I
ended up giving the show a minus number.
More on the power of three, it's significance in Western and Eastern
philosophy (which few if any spot), and a trot through the aesthetics if
I can be bothered to write it up although from what you say the episode
title looks gimmicky like "let's Kill Hitler" than a serious stab at
anything.
It's a play on mathematics. Cubed is the power of three.
It was also the last episode filmed which featured Amy and Rory.
I finished watching the show a few minutes ago and caught that. Okay, a
little clever but the exposition was too open to mean anything so was
problematic as a narrative.
The plot needed focus and there was too much rushing around which took time
away from exploring the core idea. The core idea was also watered down by
Rory's father and Kate Stewart making "the power of five" a more appropriate
title but that would be a little naff.
The actors performances looked better and were better handled than they have
been in previous shows although marred by rushing and camerawork. Some of
the timing with Kate was badly paced and the Doc stumbled over depth of
field in one of the closeups. otoh, anyone getting Steven Berkhoff to move
along faster is doing the world a favour.
It was definately a weakness to shoehorn Kate into a story that's
supposed to be tightly focused on the relationship between The Doctor,
Rory and Amy. Hopefully Kate will become a recurring character and
she'll get the focus she deserves over time.
Agamemnon
2012-09-23 05:37:52 UTC
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Post by Charles E. Hardwidge
Post by Agamemnon
Post by Charles E. Hardwidge
10/10
I quit scoring DW once it got so bad it broke my scoring scheme and I
ended up giving the show a minus number.
More on the power of three, it's significance in Western and Eastern
philosophy (which few if any spot), and a trot through the aesthetics if
I can be bothered to write it up although from what you say the episode
title looks gimmicky like "let's Kill Hitler" than a serious stab at
anything.
It's a play on mathematics. Cubed is the power of three.
It was also the last episode filmed which featured Amy and Rory.
I finished watching the show a few minutes ago and caught that. Okay, a
little clever but the exposition was too open to mean anything so was
problematic as a narrative.
The plot needed focus and there was too much rushing around which took time
away from exploring the core idea. The core idea was also watered down by
Rory's father and Kate Stewart making "the power of five" a more appropriate
title but that would be a little naff.
The actors performances looked better and were better handled than they have
been in previous shows although marred by rushing and camerawork. Some of
the timing with Kate was badly paced and the Doc stumbled over depth of
field in one of the closeups. otoh, anyone getting Steven Berkhoff to move
along faster is doing the world a favour.
<<<It was definately a weakness to shoehorn Kate into a story that's
supposed to be tightly focused on the relationship between The Doctor,
Rory and Amy. Hopefully Kate will become a recurring character and
she'll get the focus she deserves over time.>>>

Nope. The problem was exactly the opposite. The story was supposed to be
focusing to the cubes that were invading Earth and what was behind them and
in order to pass on that information in as little screen time as possible it
required Kate to be there.

Unfortunately too much time was being spent on the Doctor prancing around
with Amy and Rory including a whole load of adventures which happened during
the course of that year which had absolutely nothing to do with the plot,
instead of developing it properly.
solar penguin
2012-09-23 07:45:03 UTC
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Post by Agamemnon
<<<It was definately a weakness to shoehorn Kate into a story that's
supposed to be tightly focused on the relationship between The Doctor,
Rory and Amy. Hopefully Kate will become a recurring character and
she'll get the focus she deserves over time.>>>
Nope. The problem was exactly the opposite. The story was supposed to be
focusing to the cubes that were invading Earth and what was behind them and
No, you're getting confused between "plot" and "story" again. You
keep doing that.

The plot was about the alien cubes invading Earth, but the story was
about how Amy and Rory chose between real-life and Doctor-life.
Post by Agamemnon
in order to pass on that information in as little screen time as possible it
required Kate to be there.
And in doing so, reduced her to the female equivalent of Basil
Exposition. She deserves better than that. It could've been more
interesting to see her getting more actively involved in actually
defeating the cubes.

Let's hope they do more with her if she's brought back again.
Post by Agamemnon
Unfortunately too much time was being spent on the Doctor prancing around
with Amy and Rory including a whole load of adventures which happened during
the course of that year which had absolutely nothing to do with the plot,
instead of developing it properly.
Nothing to do with the plot, but everything to do with Amy and Rory's
story. That was the best thing about the episode.
Agamemnon
2012-09-23 17:59:04 UTC
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Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
<<<It was definately a weakness to shoehorn Kate into a story that's
supposed to be tightly focused on the relationship between The Doctor,
Rory and Amy. Hopefully Kate will become a recurring character and
she'll get the focus she deserves over time.>>>
Nope. The problem was exactly the opposite. The story was supposed to be
focusing to the cubes that were invading Earth and what was behind them and
No, you're getting confused between "plot" and "story" again. You
keep doing that.
The plot was about the alien cubes invading Earth, but the story was
about how Amy and Rory chose between real-life and Doctor-life.
No. I was totally spot on. The story was supposed to be about these alien
cubes that were invading Earth and what was behind them but instead the
episode spent too much time concentrating on a completely different story
which had nothing to do with the main plot and which did not enhance it
which was about Amy and Rory choosing between real-life and Doctor-life.
That totally irrelevant story wasted about half the duration of the episode
and is the main reason why Doctor Who has never got to grips with the 45
minute episode format, whereas US series have no problem with it at all,
since they don't go around telling two completely different stories which
don't complement each other.

Just imagine what Moffat could have done with that extra 22.5 minutes to
develop this story and conclude it properly instead of waving his magic wand
and reviving everyone that had suffered a heart attach about 5 or 10 minutes
earlier (probably more like an hour or more since they had to also travel
back the Rory and Amy's village hospital) most of whom were probably now
brain dead or left brain damaged?
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
in order to pass on that information in as little screen time as possible it
required Kate to be there.
And in doing so, reduced her to the female equivalent of Basil
Exposition. She deserves better than that. It could've been more
interesting to see her getting more actively involved in actually
defeating the cubes.
Yes, and that could have easily been done if almost half the duration of the
episode had not been wasted on telling a completely pointless and irrelevant
story about real-life over Doctor-life that offered no enhancement
whatsoever to the main story and plot about the alien cubes.
Post by solar penguin
Let's hope they do more with her if she's brought back again.
Let's hope they learn how to write for the 45 minute format first.

The problem is that the writers all seem to thing that they are writing for
soap operas so they try to tell two three four or five unrelated or loosely
related stories at the same time. It's impossible to do that in just one 45
minute episode even with two stories.

When was the last time you read a novel which told two completely different
unrelated, unlinked stories interleaved let alone four or five of them. It's
ridiculous. Moffat doesn't do it with Sherlock Holmes (and neither did Conan
Doyle) nor does Tolkein, nor does Shakespeare (and I'm talking about
completely unrelated stories here because I know he's done parallel
interlinked plots), nor does Dickens (all of his sub-plots are interlinked),
nor does C. S. Lewis, nor does Homer and nor does Heliodorus who invented
the novel in the first place. You just get the feeling that all that
real-life and Doctor-life stuff was shoehorned in. What relevance did
larking under Henry VIII's bed have to do with anything? It was totally
unnecessary.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Unfortunately too much time was being spent on the Doctor prancing around
with Amy and Rory including a whole load of adventures which happened during
the course of that year which had absolutely nothing to do with the plot,
instead of developing it properly.
Nothing to do with the plot, but everything to do with Amy and Rory's
story. That was the best thing about the episode.
Nope. The best thing about the episode was discovering the cubes and
investigating them and that was enhanced by Rory's father and Kate.
Unfortunately all that prancing around with Amy and Rory prevented the story
from being given a convincing conclusion. You could have told The Power Of
Three in just 25 minutes in The Sarah Jane Adventures from all we were given
that actual had something to do with the plot and that's the main reason why
people are furious about the standard of writing.
solar penguin
2012-09-23 18:35:54 UTC
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Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
The story was supposed to be
focusing to the cubes that were invading Earth and what was behind them
No, you're getting confused between "plot" and "story" again. You
keep doing that.
The plot was about the alien cubes invading Earth, but the story was
about how Amy and Rory chose between real-life and Doctor-life.
No. I was totally spot on.
By the law of averages, one of these days you're bound to be spot on.
But it's never happened yet.
Post by Agamemnon
The story was supposed to be about these alien
cubes that were invading Earth and what was behind them
Was it? That seems to be a minority opinion, judging by most of the
comments posted here and on other forums.

And before you claim most of the posters here and on other forums are
"STUPID IGNORANTS", do you think seriously Chris Chibnall's pitch for
the story was like that? "It's all about these little black cubes
that spend most of the episode just sitting there doing nothing at
all. Not even speaking," and the Moff replied, "Sounds like a great
story idea! They could become more popular monsters than the Daleks!
Write it at once!!!"

Neither of them is quite that stupid. (I hope.)
Post by Agamemnon
but instead the
episode spent too much time concentrating on a completely different story
which had nothing to do with the main plot and which did not enhance it
which was about Amy and Rory choosing between real-life and Doctor-life.
That totally irrelevant story wasted about half the duration of the episode
and is the main reason why Doctor Who has never got to grips with the 45
minute episode format, whereas US series have no problem with it at all,
since they don't go around telling two completely different stories which
don't complement each other.
Close but no cigar. You're right that the two storylines (I won't say
"two stories" since I don't want to dignify the cubes' subplot with
the label "story") didn't complement each other.

But the would be better solved by downplaying the cubes' plot, and
giving more emphasis to the Ponds and their relationship with the
Doctor.

Since Chibnall just plain can't do big epic plots, it would be better
if the cubes turned out to be something small-scale, rather than an
epic attempt from aliens outside time to wipe out humanity. This
would allow Chibnall to write to his strengths, not his weaknesses,
with more time for more relationship scenes.

I would've liked to have seen the cube finally turn out to be alien
junk mail offering something like used space-pods, or tentacle
extensions. "You've waited long enough, so don't wait any more.
Apply today at Andromeda 39-beta-alpha-4".

"But Doctor," asks Amy/Rory/Kate/Brian/whoever, "why did they send
them to Earth?"

"Haven't you ever had spam emails that obviously didn't apply to you?
It's the same principle" says the Doctor.

The obvious downside of my idea is that we wouldn't get to see the
Doctor saving the world from an epic threat. OTOH the obvious
advantage is that we don't get to see the Doctor's sonic screwdriver
once again saving the world in an way that makes no sense at all, from
yet another epic threat that makes no sense at all.
Post by Agamemnon
The problem is that the writers all seem to thing that they are writing for
soap operas so they try to tell two three four or five unrelated or loosely
related stories at the same time. It's impossible to do that in just one 45
minute episode even with two stories.
When was the last time you read a novel which told two completely different
unrelated, unlinked stories interleaved let alone four or five of them.
The stories were sort-of linked by having characters in common. There
are quite a few novels that only have that amount of linkage between
plots.
Post by Agamemnon
You just get the feeling that all that
real-life and Doctor-life stuff was shoehorned in.
_You_ might get that feeling. I get the opposite feeling: the the
cube stuff was shoehorned in, the the eal-life and Doctor-life stuff
was the real story.
Post by Agamemnon
What relevance did
larking under Henry VIII's bed have to do with anything? It was totally
unnecessary.
It gives us a hint that the stories aren't taking place in the same
order for the Doctor and the Ponds, which might become relevant as
their story arc finally concludes. (The Doctor had already mentioned
the Henry VIII's bedroom incident in ATCM.)
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Nothing to do with the plot, but everything to do with Amy and Rory's
story. That was the best thing about the episode.
Nope. The best thing about the episode was discovering the cubes and
investigating them and that was enhanced by Rory's father and Kate.
Again, that's a minority opinion. Judging by the posts here and
elsewhere, most people seemed to prefer Amy and Rory's story.

Not that there's anything wrong with you having minority opinions
(after all, I think "Delta & The Bannermen" is better than "The Deadly
Assassin") but you do have to work harder at justifying them in
depth. You can't just get away with loudly asserting them as fact and
expect to be taken seriously.
Agamemnon
2012-09-23 19:52:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
The story was supposed to be
focusing to the cubes that were invading Earth and what was behind them
No, you're getting confused between "plot" and "story" again. You
keep doing that.
The plot was about the alien cubes invading Earth, but the story was
about how Amy and Rory chose between real-life and Doctor-life.
No. I was totally spot on.
By the law of averages, one of these days you're bound to be spot on.
But it's never happened yet.
You are totally deluded. I have always been spot on.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
The story was supposed to be about these alien
cubes that were invading Earth and what was behind them
Was it? That seems to be a minority opinion, judging by most of the
comments posted here and on other forums.
Then you seem to be deluding yourself. Even the Doctor Who website was
getting people to make their own cubes and leave them sitting around all
over the world.

The story was about the cubes. Get it.
Post by solar penguin
And before you claim most of the posters here and on other forums are
"STUPID IGNORANTS", do you think seriously Chris Chibnall's pitch for
the story was like that? "It's all about these little black cubes
that spend most of the episode just sitting there doing nothing at
all. Not even speaking," and the Moff replied, "Sounds like a great
story idea! They could become more popular monsters than the Daleks!
Write it at once!!!"
Chris Chibnall didn't make a pitch for the story. He was told what to write
by Moffat. This was his brief, "live with the Doctor - The Man Who Came to
Dinner, Doctor Who style."

The Man Who Came to Dinner "The play is set in the small town of Mesalia,
Ohio in the weeks leading to Christmas in the 1930s. The exposition reveals
that the famously outlandish radio wit Sheridan Whiteside of New York City
was invited to dine at the house of rich factory owner Ernest W. Stanley and
his family. However, before Whiteside enters the house, he slips on a patch
of ice outside the front door and injures his hip. He is attended by Dr.
Bradley, the absent-minded town physician, and Miss Preen, his frantic
nurse."

Live with the Doctor means staying in the same place, not waltzing off to
some mansion over run by Zygons or hiding under Henry VIII's bed. And Doctor
Who style means alien black boxes and UNIT.

Clearly only part of what Chibnall wrote met the brief, the stuff with the
boxes, UNIT, Rory's dad, and the rest, choosing over Doctor-life and
Real-life had nothing to do with it whatsoever and detracted from it since
it was not about living with the Doctor, ie. in their home and him being
stuck there, which is what I was expecting, but going off with him on
another load of adventures, ie. not living with him and what already happens
in every other episode and then coming back again to continue the actual
story.
Post by solar penguin
Neither of them is quite that stupid. (I hope.)
But you are.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
but instead the
episode spent too much time concentrating on a completely different story
which had nothing to do with the main plot and which did not enhance it
which was about Amy and Rory choosing between real-life and Doctor-life.
That totally irrelevant story wasted about half the duration of the episode
and is the main reason why Doctor Who has never got to grips with the 45
minute episode format, whereas US series have no problem with it at all,
since they don't go around telling two completely different stories which
don't complement each other.
Close but no cigar. You're right that the two storylines (I won't say
"two stories" since I don't want to dignify the cubes' subplot with
the label "story") didn't complement each other.
But the would be better solved by downplaying the cubes' plot, and
giving more emphasis to the Ponds and their relationship with the
Doctor.
Nope. It would have been better to actually deal with living with the Doctor
in a serious manner, not just brush it aside in 3 or 4 minutes with the
comedy sequence of him painting the fence in the garden which only took him
an hour to do and then they all get in the TARDIS and go off on another load
of adventures with him which is life as normal not living with the Doctor.
Post by solar penguin
Since Chibnall just plain can't do big epic plots, it would be better
if the cubes turned out to be something small-scale, rather than an
epic attempt from aliens outside time to wipe out humanity. This
would allow Chibnall to write to his strengths, not his weaknesses,
with more time for more relationship scenes.
It would have been better if Chibnall actually followed the brief he was
given and actually forced the Doctor, Amy and Rory to live together in one
place and one time for a whole year, or even a couple of weeks which would
have been much more credible since it was ridiculous that the boxes spent a
whole year to find out that stopping someone's heart was the most effective
way to kill them.
Post by solar penguin
I would've liked to have seen the cube finally turn out to be alien
junk mail offering something like used space-pods, or tentacle
extensions. "You've waited long enough, so don't wait any more.
Apply today at Andromeda 39-beta-alpha-4".
"But Doctor," asks Amy/Rory/Kate/Brian/whoever, "why did they send
them to Earth?"
"Haven't you ever had spam emails that obviously didn't apply to you?
It's the same principle" says the Doctor.
The obvious downside of my idea is that we wouldn't get to see the
Doctor saving the world from an epic threat. OTOH the obvious
advantage is that we don't get to see the Doctor's sonic screwdriver
once again saving the world in an way that makes no sense at all, from
yet another epic threat that makes no sense at all.
Post by Agamemnon
The problem is that the writers all seem to thing that they are writing for
soap operas so they try to tell two three four or five unrelated or loosely
related stories at the same time. It's impossible to do that in just one 45
minute episode even with two stories.
When was the last time you read a novel which told two completely different
unrelated, unlinked stories interleaved let alone four or five of them.
The stories were sort-of linked by having characters in common. There
LOL... Are you actually being serious or are you totally and completely
crazy. In that case so was Asylum of the Daleks, which is where you belong.
Post by solar penguin
are quite a few novels that only have that amount of linkage between
plots.
Those are nothing more than collections of short stories with a common
theme.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
You just get the feeling that all that
real-life and Doctor-life stuff was shoehorned in.
_You_ might get that feeling. I get the opposite feeling: the the
cube stuff was shoehorned in, the the eal-life and Doctor-life stuff
was the real story.
The cubes and dealing with them while at the same time the Doctor was forced
to live with Amy and Rory was the real story. Instead Chibnal ignored the
brief he was given and invented his own, real-life and Doctor-life, which
detracted from the actual story.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
What relevance did
larking under Henry VIII's bed have to do with anything? It was totally
unnecessary.
It gives us a hint that the stories aren't taking place in the same
order for the Doctor and the Ponds, which might become relevant as
their story arc finally concludes. (The Doctor had already mentioned
the Henry VIII's bedroom incident in ATCM.)
All of which is irrelevant to the brief.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Nothing to do with the plot, but everything to do with Amy and Rory's
story. That was the best thing about the episode.
Nope. The best thing about the episode was discovering the cubes and
investigating them and that was enhanced by Rory's father and Kate.
Again, that's a minority opinion. Judging by the posts here and
elsewhere, most people seemed to prefer Amy and Rory's story.
Nope.

Amy and Rory weren't given a story. It was half an episode wasted by larking
around and not dealing with the actual issue given in the brief.
Post by solar penguin
Not that there's anything wrong with you having minority opinions
(after all, I think "Delta & The Bannermen" is better than "The Deadly
Assassin") but you do have to work harder at justifying them in
That proves that you are totally crazy.
Post by solar penguin
depth. You can't just get away with loudly asserting them as fact and
expect to be taken seriously.
solar penguin
2012-09-24 06:42:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
No. I was totally spot on.
By the law of averages, one of these days you're bound to be spot on.
But it's never happened yet.
You are totally deluded. I have always been spot on.
Sorry, Aggie, but no-one is _always_ spot-on. Even I've made the odd
mistake in my time, hard as that may be to believe.
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
The story was supposed to be about these alien
cubes that were invading Earth and what was behind them
Was it? That seems to be a minority opinion, judging by most of the
comments posted here and on other forums.
Then you seem to be deluding yourself.
If anyone's deluding me, it must be all those posters here and on
other forums. ;-)
Post by Agamemnon
Even the Doctor Who website was
getting people to make their own cubes and leave them sitting around all
over the world.
Well, getting little children to do that. Hence the "Get your parent
to help you with the scissors" bit in the instructions. Dalek stories
inspired children to play with sink plungers, but that doesn't mean
the stories are about plunging sinks!

And, more importantly, it's a lot easier to make a cut-out paper cube
than a cut-out paper demonstration of the fact that the Doctor needs
companions as somewhere to metaphorically run towards.
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
And before you claim most of the posters here and on other forums are
"STUPID IGNORANTS", do you think seriously Chris Chibnall's pitch for
the story was like that? "It's all about these little black cubes
that spend most of the episode just sitting there doing nothing at
all. Not even speaking," and the Moff replied, "Sounds like a great
story idea! They could become more popular monsters than the Daleks!
Write it at once!!!"
Chris Chibnall didn't make a pitch for the story. He was told what to write
by Moffat. This was his brief, "live with the Doctor - The Man Who Came to
Dinner, Doctor Who style."
The Man Who Came to Dinner "The play is set in the small town of Mesalia,
Ohio in the weeks leading to Christmas in the 1930s. The exposition reveals
that the famously outlandish radio wit Sheridan Whiteside of New York City
was invited to dine at the house of rich factory owner Ernest W. Stanley and
his family. However, before Whiteside enters the house, he slips on a patch
of ice outside the front door and injures his hip. He is attended by Dr.
Bradley, the absent-minded town physician, and Miss Preen, his frantic
nurse."
There's no need to cut-and-paste the Wikipedia plot summary for the
play. I'm aware of it through the old B&W film adaptation starring
the brilliant Monty Wooley. (I actually watched it thinking it was
going to be a sequel to "Guess Who's Coming To Dinner.")

But my point still stands. The original specification for the episode
had nothing to do with cubes, no matter who thought of it.
Post by Agamemnon
Live with the Doctor means staying in the same place, not waltzing off to
some mansion over run by Zygons or hiding under Henry VIII's bed. And Doctor
Who style means alien black boxes and UNIT.
Clearly only part of what Chibnall wrote met the brief,the stuff with the
boxes, UNIT, Rory's dad, and the rest, choosing over Doctor-life and
Real-life had nothing to do with it whatsoever and detracted from it since
it was not about living with the Doctor
And good for Chibnall. After all, "Living with the Doctor," had
already been done in "The Lodger". Did you really want just a retread
of that?
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Since Chibnall just plain can't do big epic plots, it would be better
if the cubes turned out to be something small-scale, rather than an
epic attempt from aliens outside time to wipe out humanity. This
would allow Chibnall to write to his strengths, not his weaknesses,
with more time for more relationship scenes.
It would have been better if Chibnall actually followed the brief he was
given
We can't have writers actually being creative and imaginative, can we?
Post by Agamemnon
it was ridiculous that the boxes spent a
whole year to find out that stopping someone's heart was the most effective
way to kill them.
They didn't. See my reply to Fett elsewhere in this thread.
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
The problem is that the writers all seem to thing that they are writing for
soap operas so they try to tell two three four or five unrelated or loosely
related stories at the same time. It's impossible to do that in just one 45
minute episode even with two stories.
When was the last time you read a novel which told two completely different
unrelated, unlinked stories interleaved let alone four or five of them.
The stories were sort-of linked by having characters in common. There
LOL... Are you actually being serious or are you totally and completely
crazy. In that case so was Asylum of the Daleks, which is where you belong.
Are you saying that Amy, Rory, the Doctor, and Brian _weren't_ in both
the domestic story and the cube storyline?

Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer it if there was some sort of stronger
thematic link as well. But we have to live with what we've got.
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
are quite a few novels that only have that amount of linkage between
plots.
Those are nothing more than collections of short stories with a common
theme.
I never said they were _good_ novels. But they are marketed as
novels.
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Nothing to do with the plot, but everything to do with Amy and Rory's
story. That was the best thing about the episode.
Nope. The best thing about the episode was discovering the cubes and
investigating them and that was enhanced by Rory's father and Kate.
Again, that's a minority opinion. Judging by the posts here and
elsewhere, most people seemed to prefer Amy and Rory's story.
Nope.
Let me guess... All the posts disagreeing with you aren't part of the
consensus, so don't count. That's your usual response to stuff like
this.
Post by Agamemnon
That proves that you are totally crazy.
Not _totally_ crazy. There are some types of craziness I haven't
experienced yet...
Agamemnon
2012-09-24 13:18:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
No. I was totally spot on.
By the law of averages, one of these days you're bound to be spot on.
But it's never happened yet.
You are totally deluded. I have always been spot on.
Sorry, Aggie, but no-one is _always_ spot-on. Even I've made the odd
mistake in my time, hard as that may be to believe.
In the context of this discussion I have.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
The story was supposed to be about these alien
cubes that were invading Earth and what was behind them
Was it? That seems to be a minority opinion, judging by most of the
comments posted here and on other forums.
Then you seem to be deluding yourself.
If anyone's deluding me, it must be all those posters here and on
other forums. ;-)
Post by Agamemnon
Even the Doctor Who website was
getting people to make their own cubes and leave them sitting around all
over the world.
Well, getting little children to do that. Hence the "Get your parent
to help you with the scissors" bit in the instructions. Dalek stories
inspired children to play with sink plungers, but that doesn't mean
the stories are about plunging sinks!
What does that have to do with black inert cubes?
Post by solar penguin
And, more importantly, it's a lot easier to make a cut-out paper cube
than a cut-out paper demonstration of the fact that the Doctor needs
companions as somewhere to metaphorically run towards.
That's not what the brief Moffat gave to Chibnall was supposed to be about,
and not what Chibnall wrote about either.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
And before you claim most of the posters here and on other forums are
"STUPID IGNORANTS", do you think seriously Chris Chibnall's pitch for
the story was like that? "It's all about these little black cubes
that spend most of the episode just sitting there doing nothing at
all. Not even speaking," and the Moff replied, "Sounds like a great
story idea! They could become more popular monsters than the Daleks!
Write it at once!!!"
Chris Chibnall didn't make a pitch for the story. He was told what to write
by Moffat. This was his brief, "live with the Doctor - The Man Who Came to
Dinner, Doctor Who style."
The Man Who Came to Dinner "The play is set in the small town of Mesalia,
Ohio in the weeks leading to Christmas in the 1930s. The exposition reveals
that the famously outlandish radio wit Sheridan Whiteside of New York City
was invited to dine at the house of rich factory owner Ernest W. Stanley and
his family. However, before Whiteside enters the house, he slips on a patch
of ice outside the front door and injures his hip. He is attended by Dr.
Bradley, the absent-minded town physician, and Miss Preen, his frantic
nurse."
There's no need to cut-and-paste the Wikipedia plot summary for the
play. I'm aware of it through the old B&W film adaptation starring
Yes there is since it illustrates that Chibanll ignored his brief and only
gave the play a fleeting indirect reference that was unrecognisable unless
you knew what the brief was.
Post by solar penguin
the brilliant Monty Wooley. (I actually watched it thinking it was
going to be a sequel to "Guess Who's Coming To Dinner.")
But my point still stands. The original specification for the episode
had nothing to do with cubes, no matter who thought of it.
Wrong. Doctor Who style means cubes or any other kind of alien influence.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Live with the Doctor means staying in the same place, not waltzing off to
some mansion over run by Zygons or hiding under Henry VIII's bed. And Doctor
Who style means alien black boxes and UNIT.
Clearly only part of what Chibnall wrote met the brief,the stuff with the
boxes, UNIT, Rory's dad, and the rest, choosing over Doctor-life and
Real-life had nothing to do with it whatsoever and detracted from it since
it was not about living with the Doctor
And good for Chibnall. After all, "Living with the Doctor," had
already been done in "The Lodger". Did you really want just a retread
of that?
Which is making me think that maybe all Moffat's briefs are the same and
adds to my observation about Moffat doing exactly what RTD did and RTD doing
exactly what JNT did based on the same brief but in a different style.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Since Chibnall just plain can't do big epic plots, it would be better
if the cubes turned out to be something small-scale, rather than an
epic attempt from aliens outside time to wipe out humanity. This
would allow Chibnall to write to his strengths, not his weaknesses,
with more time for more relationship scenes.
It would have been better if Chibnall actually followed the brief he was
given
We can't have writers actually being creative and imaginative, can we?
The idea is for the writers to follow the brief they are given. It's no
wonder British TV is incapable of doing story arcs like US TV can, since the
writers are clearly incapable of following instructions.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
it was ridiculous that the boxes spent a
whole year to find out that stopping someone's heart was the most effective
way to kill them.
They didn't. See my reply to Fett elsewhere in this thread.
Yes they did. Your idea that it only took a week for them to work out how to
kill everyone after spending the whole year idol for no purpose whatsoever
is even more ridiculous.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
The problem is that the writers all seem to thing that they are
writing
for
soap operas so they try to tell two three four or five unrelated or loosely
related stories at the same time. It's impossible to do that in just
one
45
minute episode even with two stories.
When was the last time you read a novel which told two completely different
unrelated, unlinked stories interleaved let alone four or five of them.
The stories were sort-of linked by having characters in common. There
LOL... Are you actually being serious or are you totally and completely
crazy. In that case so was Asylum of the Daleks, which is where you belong.
Are you saying that Amy, Rory, the Doctor, and Brian _weren't_ in both
the domestic story and the cube storyline?
The domestic story consisted of the Doctor prancing around, painting a fence
and doing keep me ups to a score by Murray Gold. It was a total waste of
time which could have been spent developing the cube plot since the sub-plot
Moffat requested about living with the Doctor was turned into something
completely different and was unconnected with and unessential to the cube
plot nor did it enhance it. Chibnall wrote two unconnected stories that
didn't complement each other in any way and wasted half the 45 minutes doing
so, and it's the same problem with other writers as well.
Post by solar penguin
Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer it if there was some sort of stronger
thematic link as well. But we have to live with what we've got.
No we don't. British writers need to learn the skill of writing
interconnected plots or stories if they intend to do such a thing or
otherwise don't bother.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
are quite a few novels that only have that amount of linkage between
plots.
Those are nothing more than collections of short stories with a common
theme.
I never said they were _good_ novels. But they are marketed as
novels.
Collections of short stories. They aren't real novels.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Nothing to do with the plot, but everything to do with Amy and Rory's
story. That was the best thing about the episode.
Nope. The best thing about the episode was discovering the cubes and
investigating them and that was enhanced by Rory's father and Kate.
Again, that's a minority opinion. Judging by the posts here and
elsewhere, most people seemed to prefer Amy and Rory's story.
Nope.
Let me guess... All the posts disagreeing with you aren't part of the
consensus, so don't count. That's your usual response to stuff like
this.
Post by Agamemnon
That proves that you are totally crazy.
Not _totally_ crazy. There are some types of craziness I haven't
experienced yet...
Probably because you are so crazy that there is no room left for you to
experience and more craziness.
Charles E. Hardwidge
2012-09-24 13:44:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Agamemnon
That's not what the brief Moffat gave to Chibnall was supposed to be
about, and not what Chibnall wrote about either.
Do you have a copy of the brief you're referring to, or are you having
fantasy conversations in your head with people you've never met? Sounds a
tad nutty to me if you are...
--
Charles E. Hardwidge
Agamemnon
2012-09-24 14:06:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Charles E. Hardwidge
Post by Agamemnon
That's not what the brief Moffat gave to Chibnall was supposed to be
about, and not what Chibnall wrote about either.
Do you have a copy of the brief you're referring to, or are you having
fantasy conversations in your head with people you've never met? Sounds a
tad nutty to me if you are...
Do you ever bother reading threads in full?
Post by Charles E. Hardwidge
--
Charles E. Hardwidge
Charles E. Hardwidge
2012-09-24 14:24:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Agamemnon
Post by Charles E. Hardwidge
Post by Agamemnon
That's not what the brief Moffat gave to Chibnall was supposed to be
about, and not what Chibnall wrote about either.
Do you have a copy of the brief you're referring to, or are you having
fantasy conversations in your head with people you've never met? Sounds a
tad nutty to me if you are...
Do you ever bother reading threads in full?
A simple explanation or link would suffice.

I brought the axe down today on people who mean a lot more (and who I know
personally) for faffing around. Not really in the mood for feeding threads
of endless squabbling circling themselves around the planet.

Just answer the fucking question, okay?
--
Charles E. Hardwidge
Agamemnon
2012-09-24 14:31:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Charles E. Hardwidge
Post by Agamemnon
Post by Charles E. Hardwidge
Post by Agamemnon
That's not what the brief Moffat gave to Chibnall was supposed to be
about, and not what Chibnall wrote about either.
Do you have a copy of the brief you're referring to, or are you having
fantasy conversations in your head with people you've never met? Sounds a
tad nutty to me if you are...
Do you ever bother reading threads in full?
A simple explanation or link would suffice.
I brought the axe down today on people who mean a lot more (and who I know
personally) for faffing around. Not really in the mood for feeding threads
of endless squabbling circling themselves around the planet.
Just answer the fucking question, okay?
Post by Agamemnon
Chris Chibnall didn't make a pitch for the story. He was told what to write
by Moffat. This was his brief, "live with the Doctor - The Man Who Came to
Dinner, Doctor Who style."
--
Charles E. Hardwidge
Charles E. Hardwidge
2012-09-24 14:46:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Agamemnon
Chris Chibnall didn't make a pitch for the story. He was told what to
write by Moffat. This was his brief, "live with the Doctor - The Man Who
Came to Dinner, Doctor Who style."
Got a cite for that, or is it just a rumour? Link?

It's no good pulling out what you think a brief is or what was in the brief
if it's only grounded in fanwank.
--
Charles E. Hardwidge
solar penguin
2012-09-24 18:59:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Charles E. Hardwidge
Post by Agamemnon
Chris Chibnall didn't make a pitch for the story. He was told what to
write by Moffat. This was his brief, "live with the Doctor - The Man Who
Came to Dinner, Doctor Who style."
Got a cite for that, or is it just a rumour? Link?
It's no good pulling out what you think a brief is or what was in the brief
if it's only grounded in fanwank.
--
Wikipedia says it, so it must be true.
Charles E. Hardwidge
2012-09-24 19:04:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by solar penguin
Post by Charles E. Hardwidge
Post by Agamemnon
Chris Chibnall didn't make a pitch for the story. He was told what to
write by Moffat. This was his brief, "live with the Doctor - The Man
Who Came to Dinner, Doctor Who style."
Got a cite for that, or is it just a rumour? Link?
It's no good pulling out what you think a brief is or what was in the
brief if it's only grounded in fanwank.
Wikipedia says it, so it must be true.
Can't be bothered to look it up. Link?

C'mon, you're getting paid for results not billable minutes.
--
Charles E. Hardwidge
solar penguin
2012-09-24 19:11:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Charles E. Hardwidge
Post by solar penguin
Post by Charles E. Hardwidge
Post by Agamemnon
Chris Chibnall didn't make a pitch for the story. He was told what to
write by Moffat. This was his brief, "live with the Doctor - The Man
Who Came to Dinner, Doctor Who style."
Got a cite for that, or is it just a rumour? Link?
It's no good pulling out what you think a brief is or what was in the
brief if it's only grounded in fanwank.
Wikipedia says it, so it must be true.
Can't be bothered to look it up. Link?
If I could find the reference on Wikipedia immediately after reading
Aggy's claim, you should be able to manage it too.

But just in case you've got a really cheap computer that can't do
Google:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Three_%28Doctor_Who%29#Production
Post by Charles E. Hardwidge
C'mon, you're getting paid for results not billable minutes.
--
I think you're getting confused about who you're arguing with...
Charles E. Hardwidge
2012-09-24 20:13:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by solar penguin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Three_%28Doctor_Who%29#Production
Post by Charles E. Hardwidge
C'mon, you're getting paid for results not billable minutes.
I think you're getting confused about who you're arguing with...
I was asking for a cite not an argument. Okay, it took 7 posts to arrive
but it did arrive. Thank you. (This assumes Wikipedia is an accurate report
of what a journalist wrote up in Doctor Who Magazine which, itself, may
contain inaccuracies or omit crucial information.)

Um, yes. The brief is a little slack but the story wasn't focused either.
People have thrashed that to bits already.

I get the impression Moffat thinks other people are mind readers, and
wondering if a better abstract would help shape the story for writers. They
have a little too much freedom and star writers like Neil Gaiman just walk
all over everything.
--
Charles E. Hardwidge
solar penguin
2012-09-24 19:57:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
You are totally deluded. I have always been spot on.
Sorry, Aggie, but no-one is _always_ spot-on. Even I've made the odd
mistake in my time, hard as that may be to believe.
In the context of this discussion I have.
Yes, you have made the odd mistake in this discussion.
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Even the Doctor Who website was
getting people to make their own cubes and leave them sitting around all
over the world.
Well, getting little children to do that. Hence the "Get your parent
to help you with the scissors" bit in the instructions. Dalek stories
inspired children to play with sink plungers, but that doesn't mean
the stories are about plunging sinks!
What does that have to do with black inert cubes?
It demonstrates the the object in the episode which works best as a
child's toy isn't necessarily the most important part of the story.

I'm surprised you needed to have that explained.
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
And, more importantly, it's a lot easier to make a cut-out paper cube
than a cut-out paper demonstration of the fact that the Doctor needs
companions as somewhere to metaphorically run towards.
That's not what the brief Moffat gave to Chibnall was supposed to be about,
I'm not talking about what Chibnall would've written if he'd slavishly
followed a literal interpretation of Moffat's brief. I'm talking
about the actual episode that he did actually write.
Post by Agamemnon
and not what Chibnall wrote about either.
Yes he did. That conversation between Amy and the Doctor sitting on
the riverbank. Remember it? That was the emotional heart of the the
whole episode.
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Chris Chibnall didn't make a pitch for the story. He was told what to write
by Moffat. This was his brief, "live with the Doctor - The Man Who Came
to Dinner, Doctor Who style."
The Man Who Came to Dinner "The play is set in the small town of Mesalia,
Ohio in the weeks leading to Christmas in the 1930s. The exposition reveals
that the famously outlandish radio wit Sheridan Whiteside of New York City
was invited to dine at the house of rich factory owner Ernest W. Stanley and
his family. However, before Whiteside enters the house, he slips on a patch
of ice outside the front door and injures his hip. He is attended by Dr.
Bradley, the absent-minded town physician, and Miss Preen, his frantic
nurse."
There's no need to cut-and-paste the Wikipedia plot summary for the
play. I'm aware of it through the old B&W film adaptation
Yes there is
No there isn't, because I already know the plot of the film.
Post by Agamemnon
since it illustrates that Chibanll ignored his brief and only
gave the play a fleeting indirect reference that was unrecognisable unless
you knew what the brief was.
That's what writers do. They use their imagination and creativity. A
brief is only ever a starting point, a springboard to something else.

Again, I'm surprised you needed to have that explained.
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
But my point still stands. The original specification for the episode
had nothing to do with cubes, no matter who thought of it.
Wrong. Doctor Who style means cubes or any other kind of alien influence.
Is it Moffat who thinks "Doctor Who style" means that? Or Chibnall?
And can you give a quote from them to confirm it?

And besides, isn't the Doctor himself a "kind of alien influence"?
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
It would have been better if Chibnall actually followed the brief he was
given
We can't have writers actually being creative and imaginative, can we?
The idea is for the writers to follow the brief they are given.
That's not going to be very popular with writers.
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
it was ridiculous that the boxes spent a
whole year to find out that stopping someone's heart was the most
effective way to kill them.
They didn't. See my reply to Fett elsewhere in this thread.
Yes they did. Your idea that it only took a week for them to work out how to
kill everyone after spending the whole year idol for no purpose whatsoever
is even more ridiculous.
It was under an hour, not a week. And it was Chibnall's idea, not
mine. Apart from that, you're spot on, it was totally ridiculous.
But that's what was in the episode!
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer it if there was some sort of stronger
thematic link as well. But we have to live with what we've got.
No we don't. British writers need to learn the skill of writing
interconnected plots or stories if they intend to do such a thing or
otherwise don't bother.
How are they going to to develop that skill if they don't practice it
in whatever episodes they write, and steadily learn from their
mistakes? That's the only way to improve your writing.
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Those are nothing more than collections of short stories with a common
theme.
I never said they were _good_ novels. But they are marketed as
novels.
Collections of short stories. They aren't real novels.
The writers and publishers seem to think they're novels. The idea is
that the whole should be more than the sum of the parts, in ways that
traditional short story collections aren't. (It doesn't always work
in practice.)

I'd love to do one about Jack the Ripper's victims. Each chapter (or
"short story" if you insist) would be about a different victim, and
the circumstances that led her to be in the wrong place at the wrong
time. The Ripper himself would never appear, and we'd never learn his
identity. (Unfortunately, I don't really enjoy writing, so it'll
never get done.)
Agamemnon
2012-09-24 23:13:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
You are totally deluded. I have always been spot on.
Sorry, Aggie, but no-one is _always_ spot-on. Even I've made the odd
mistake in my time, hard as that may be to believe.
In the context of this discussion I have.
Yes, you have made the odd mistake in this discussion.
I meant I have not, but since the above line was obviously a mistake,
probably due to my spell checker changing what I actually wrote once again I
will have to concede the point, but only in respect of that particular
sentence.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Even the Doctor Who website was
getting people to make their own cubes and leave them sitting around all
over the world.
Well, getting little children to do that. Hence the "Get your parent
to help you with the scissors" bit in the instructions. Dalek stories
inspired children to play with sink plungers, but that doesn't mean
the stories are about plunging sinks!
What does that have to do with black inert cubes?
It demonstrates the the object in the episode which works best as a
child's toy isn't necessarily the most important part of the story.
It doesn't explain anything of the kind.
Post by solar penguin
I'm surprised you needed to have that explained.
Your analogy is completely ridiculous.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
And, more importantly, it's a lot easier to make a cut-out paper cube
than a cut-out paper demonstration of the fact that the Doctor needs
companions as somewhere to metaphorically run towards.
That's not what the brief Moffat gave to Chibnall was supposed to be about,
I'm not talking about what Chibnall would've written if he'd slavishly
followed a literal interpretation of Moffat's brief. I'm talking
about the actual episode that he did actually write.
Which was about alien cubes, since he clearly ignored the brief he was
given.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
and not what Chibnall wrote about either.
Yes he did. That conversation between Amy and the Doctor sitting on
the riverbank. Remember it? That was the emotional heart of the the
whole episode.
The ordinary life Doctor life debate had nothing to do with the story the
episode was supposed to be telling which was about the alien cubes and
didn't not enhance it in any way. In fact it did exactly the opposite and
detracted from it by time wasting. It's writing like that which is the main
reason why Doctor Who has never been able to cope with the 45 minute episode
format. The writers don't have a clue of how to write for it and even of
Moffat or the script editors do they're not prepare to ask the writers to
make changes to their scripts to sort the problem out. They're probably
afraid of losing their jobs.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Chris Chibnall didn't make a pitch for the story. He was told what to write
by Moffat. This was his brief, "live with the Doctor - The Man Who Came
to Dinner, Doctor Who style."
The Man Who Came to Dinner "The play is set in the small town of Mesalia,
Ohio in the weeks leading to Christmas in the 1930s. The exposition reveals
that the famously outlandish radio wit Sheridan Whiteside of New York City
was invited to dine at the house of rich factory owner Ernest W.
Stanley
and
his family. However, before Whiteside enters the house, he slips on a patch
of ice outside the front door and injures his hip. He is attended by Dr.
Bradley, the absent-minded town physician, and Miss Preen, his frantic
nurse."
There's no need to cut-and-paste the Wikipedia plot summary for the
play. I'm aware of it through the old B&W film adaptation
Yes there is
No there isn't, because I already know the plot of the film.
You might but other people might not.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
since it illustrates that Chibanll ignored his brief and only
gave the play a fleeting indirect reference that was unrecognisable unless
you knew what the brief was.
That's what writers do. They use their imagination and creativity. A
brief is only ever a starting point, a springboard to something else.
Again, I'm surprised you needed to have that explained.
You are a fool. Chibnall is being paid to write for a TV series not for his
own leisure. His job is to write exactly what he's told to write and to make
sure it works in 45 minutes. It's obvious he wasn't doing either with the
above story, and even worse the other writers are just as bad. They don't
have a clue of what they're supposed to do and they don't care what they are
supposed to the writing for.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
But my point still stands. The original specification for the episode
had nothing to do with cubes, no matter who thought of it.
Wrong. Doctor Who style means cubes or any other kind of alien influence.
Is it Moffat who thinks "Doctor Who style" means that? Or Chibnall?
And can you give a quote from them to confirm it?
It's irrelevant which of them decided it meant that. That's what it means
irrespective.
Post by solar penguin
And besides, isn't the Doctor himself a "kind of alien influence"?
Stop being idiotic.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
It would have been better if Chibnall actually followed the brief he was
given
We can't have writers actually being creative and imaginative, can we?
The idea is for the writers to follow the brief they are given.
That's not going to be very popular with writers.
Tough.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
it was ridiculous that the boxes spent a
whole year to find out that stopping someone's heart was the most
effective way to kill them.
They didn't. See my reply to Fett elsewhere in this thread.
Yes they did. Your idea that it only took a week for them to work out how to
kill everyone after spending the whole year idol for no purpose whatsoever
is even more ridiculous.
It was under an hour, not a week. And it was Chibnall's idea, not
mine. Apart from that, you're spot on, it was totally ridiculous.
But that's what was in the episode!
And the reason it was ridiculous was because Chibnall wasted half the
episode with the characters prancing around doing stuff that had no
connection with the main plot, instead of actually developing it properly.
It didn't even have anything but a feeble connection with even the parallel
story about normal life and Doctor life. It was just prancing around. Any
decent script editor would have told Chibnall that there wasn't enough time
in the episode to do that and asked him to develop the main plot instead or
the asides.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer it if there was some sort of stronger
thematic link as well. But we have to live with what we've got.
No we don't. British writers need to learn the skill of writing
interconnected plots or stories if they intend to do such a thing or
otherwise don't bother.
How are they going to to develop that skill if they don't practice it
in whatever episodes they write, and steadily learn from their
mistakes? That's the only way to improve your writing.
What? They're not supposed to be there to practice on the job. If they
haven't already learned how to write for a 45 minute episode format then
Moffat should find other people to write for them instead or tell his script
editors to edit the scripts so they work.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Those are nothing more than collections of short stories with a common
theme.
I never said they were _good_ novels. But they are marketed as
novels.
Collections of short stories. They aren't real novels.
The writers and publishers seem to think they're novels. The idea is
that the whole should be more than the sum of the parts, in ways that
traditional short story collections aren't. (It doesn't always work
in practice.)
I'd love to do one about Jack the Ripper's victims. Each chapter (or
"short story" if you insist) would be about a different victim, and
the circumstances that led her to be in the wrong place at the wrong
time. The Ripper himself would never appear, and we'd never learn his
identity. (Unfortunately, I don't really enjoy writing, so it'll
never get done.)
It's still a collection of short stories.
solar penguin
2012-09-25 08:03:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Sorry, Aggie, but no-one is _always_ spot-on. Even I've made the odd
mistake in my time, hard as that may be to believe.
In the context of this discussion I have.
Yes, you have made the odd mistake in this discussion.
I meant I have not, but since the above line was obviously a mistake,
probably due to my spell checker changing what I actually wrote once again I
will have to concede the point, but only in respect of that particular
sentence.
Not the old spellchecker excuse again!

Have you ever tried disabling your spellcheecker, or upgrading to one
that works properly!?!
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
It demonstrates the the object in the episode which works best as a
child's toy isn't necessarily the most important part of the story.
It doesn't explain anything of the kind.
That's right. It doesn't explain, it demonstrates. That's why my
sentence began, "It demonstrates..."
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
That's not what the brief Moffat gave to Chibnall was supposed to be about,
I'm not talking about what Chibnall would've written if he'd slavishly
followed a literal interpretation of Moffat's brief. I'm talking
about the actual episode that he did actually write.
Which was about alien cubes, since he clearly ignored the brief he was
given.
He didn't ignore it. As I've already said, he used it as a
springboard.

Even the Moff himself doesn't think that Chibnall ignored the brief.
As late as 31 Aug, Moffat's publicity blurb described the episode as,
"halfway between an alien invasion movie and The Man Who Came to
Dinner."
http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2012-08-31/steven-moffats-doctor-who-episode-guide-the-power-of-three
He wouldn't do that if he thought Chibnall had ignored the brief,
would he?
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
and not what Chibnall wrote about either.
Yes he did. That conversation between Amy and the Doctor sitting on
the riverbank. Remember it? That was the emotional heart of the the
whole episode.
The ordinary life Doctor life debate had nothing to do with the story the
episode was supposed to be telling which was about the alien cubes and
didn't not enhance it in any way.
Maybe it didn't enhance it in your preferred way, but that's not the
same as "in any way". Given that most people thought the ordinary
life/Doctor life stuff was the most enjoyable part of the episode, it
clearly did enhance it in some way.

However, I was talking about one specific scene. The riverside
conversation where the Doctor explains that he needs somewhere to run
to. For me, it was the first time Matt Smith really looked like _the_
Doctor, rather than just the latest Doctor. What did you think of
it? If it wasn't at the heart of that episode's emotional journey for
you, which scene was?
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
That's what writers do. They use their imagination and creativity. A
brief is only ever a starting point, a springboard to something else.
Again, I'm surprised you needed to have that explained.
You are a fool. Chibnall is being paid to write for a TV series not for his
own leisure. His job is to write exactly what he's told to write
I don't think many writers would agree with that description of the
job. Can you quote the exact passage in Chibnall's contract which
specifies it?
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Doctor Who style means cubes or any other kind of alien influence.
Is it Moffat who thinks "Doctor Who style" means that? Or Chibnall?
And can you give a quote from them to confirm it?
It's irrelevant which of them decided it meant that. That's what it means
It's relevant if _neither_ of them thinks it means that. For example,
the Dr Sandiford at TARDIS Eruditorum has made an interesting argument
that Doctor Who's style is all about breaking down the barriers
between genres, and while introducing a "kind of alien influence" is
one way it does it, it's not the only way.
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
And besides, isn't the Doctor himself a "kind of alien influence"?
Stop being idiotic.
Please give me a non-idiotic argument why the Doctor isn't an alien
influence. (e.g. He's the only alien influence in the Hartnell
historicals.)
Post by Agamemnon
Any
decent script editor would have told Chibnall that there wasn't enough time
in the episode to do that and asked him to develop the main plot instead or
the asides.
I actually agree up to a point. _But_ since most viewers seemed to
prefer the character stuff in this episode, any decent script editor
should know that that was the main story which should be developed,
and the cubes are the asides which should've been downplayed.
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Collections of short stories. They aren't real novels.
The writers and publishers seem to think they're novels. The idea is
that the whole should be more than the sum of the parts, in ways that
traditional short story collections aren't. (It doesn't always work
in practice.)
It's still a collection of short stories.
Have you listened to Big Finish's "Circular Time"? And if so, what
did you make of it?
Agamemnon
2012-09-25 12:52:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Sorry, Aggie, but no-one is _always_ spot-on. Even I've made the odd
mistake in my time, hard as that may be to believe.
In the context of this discussion I have.
Yes, you have made the odd mistake in this discussion.
I meant I have not, but since the above line was obviously a mistake,
probably due to my spell checker changing what I actually wrote once again I
will have to concede the point, but only in respect of that particular
sentence.
Not the old spellchecker excuse again!
Have you ever tried disabling your spellcheecker, or upgrading to one
that works properly!?!
Unfortunately Windows 8 just like 7 and Vista is going to be another
downgrade compared to Windows XP, ie. no newsreader, so I'm sticking with XP
and as for the latest version of Office, it's worse than a downgrade, it's
practically unusable with the new menu system which hides all the commonly
used functions like printing from you and you have to make 3 or 4 mouse
clicks to do what you could previously do in just one.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
It demonstrates the the object in the episode which works best as a
child's toy isn't necessarily the most important part of the story.
It doesn't explain anything of the kind.
That's right. It doesn't explain, it demonstrates. That's why my
sentence began, "It demonstrates..."
It doesn't demonstrate anything of the kind either. Fool.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
That's not what the brief Moffat gave to Chibnall was supposed to be about,
I'm not talking about what Chibnall would've written if he'd slavishly
followed a literal interpretation of Moffat's brief. I'm talking
about the actual episode that he did actually write.
Which was about alien cubes, since he clearly ignored the brief he was
given.
He didn't ignore it. As I've already said, he used it as a
springboard.
One persons ignorance is another's springboard. Lol...
Post by solar penguin
Even the Moff himself doesn't think that Chibnall ignored the brief.
As late as 31 Aug, Moffat's publicity blurb described the episode as,
"halfway between an alien invasion movie and The Man Who Came to
Dinner."
http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2012-08-31/steven-moffats-doctor-who-episode-guide-the-power-of-three
He wouldn't do that if he thought Chibnall had ignored the brief,
would he?
I bet he still hadn't actually read Chibnall's script at the time except for
a fleeting glance. That might explain why he wasn't asked to do a rewrite,
since it clearly has little influence from The Man Who Came to Dinner.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
and not what Chibnall wrote about either.
Yes he did. That conversation between Amy and the Doctor sitting on
the riverbank. Remember it? That was the emotional heart of the the
whole episode.
The ordinary life Doctor life debate had nothing to do with the story the
episode was supposed to be telling which was about the alien cubes and
didn't not enhance it in any way.
Maybe it didn't enhance it in your preferred way, but that's not the
same as "in any way". Given that most people thought the ordinary
life/Doctor life stuff was the most enjoyable part of the episode, it
clearly did enhance it in some way.
What people? The prancing around for no reason was the best part? Are you
serious?
Post by solar penguin
However, I was talking about one specific scene. The riverside
conversation where the Doctor explains that he needs somewhere to run
to. For me, it was the first time Matt Smith really looked like _the_
Doctor, rather than just the latest Doctor. What did you think of
it? If it wasn't at the heart of that episode's emotional journey for
you, which scene was?
With all the idiotic prancing around since the series came back in 2005 it's
difficult to take most things the Doctor says seriously anymore. That's the
reason why Eccleston left.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
That's what writers do. They use their imagination and creativity. A
brief is only ever a starting point, a springboard to something else.
Again, I'm surprised you needed to have that explained.
You are a fool. Chibnall is being paid to write for a TV series not for his
own leisure. His job is to write exactly what he's told to write
I don't think many writers would agree with that description of the
job. Can you quote the exact passage in Chibnall's contract which
specifies it?
Obviously this is a deficiency in British writing for TV which doesn't seem
to exist concerning people writing for US TV series.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Doctor Who style means cubes or any other kind of alien influence.
Is it Moffat who thinks "Doctor Who style" means that? Or Chibnall?
And can you give a quote from them to confirm it?
It's irrelevant which of them decided it meant that. That's what it means
It's relevant if _neither_ of them thinks it means that. For example,
the Dr Sandiford at TARDIS Eruditorum has made an interesting argument
that Doctor Who's style is all about breaking down the barriers
between genres, and while introducing a "kind of alien influence" is
one way it does it, it's not the only way.
A kind of what? The prancing around is alien influence? It's pure time
wasting and detracts from the main story and prevents it from being told
properly in 45 minutes.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
And besides, isn't the Doctor himself a "kind of alien influence"?
Stop being idiotic.
Please give me a non-idiotic argument why the Doctor isn't an alien
influence. (e.g. He's the only alien influence in the Hartnell
historicals.)
Prancing around isn't alien.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Any
decent script editor would have told Chibnall that there wasn't enough time
in the episode to do that and asked him to develop the main plot instead or
the asides.
I actually agree up to a point. _But_ since most viewers seemed to
prefer the character stuff in this episode, any decent script editor
What? Prancing around to backing music by Murray Gold is character stuff?
Since when? Most viewers did not prefer that at all.
Post by solar penguin
should know that that was the main story which should be developed,
and the cubes are the asides which should've been downplayed.
Lol... Then it wouldn't have been Doctor Who but some insane 45 minute long
pop video extolling the music of Murray Gold.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Collections of short stories. They aren't real novels.
The writers and publishers seem to think they're novels. The idea is
that the whole should be more than the sum of the parts, in ways that
traditional short story collections aren't. (It doesn't always work
in practice.)
It's still a collection of short stories.
Have you listened to Big Finish's "Circular Time"? And if so, what
did you make of it?
Which Doctor did that feature?
solar penguin
2012-09-25 14:15:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
I meant I have not, but since the above line was obviously a mistake,
probably due to my spell checker changing what I actually wrote once again I
will have to concede the point, but only in respect of that particular
sentence.
Not the old spellchecker excuse again!
Have you ever tried disabling your spellcheecker, or upgrading to one
that works properly!?!
Unfortunately Windows 8 just like 7 and Vista is going to be another
downgrade compared to Windows XP, ie. no newsreader, so I'm sticking with XP
I don't blame you. Whenever I have to use Windows, I prefer XP too.
But its spellchecker has never randomly deleted the word "not" from
the middle of my sentences.
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
It demonstrates the the object in the episode which works best as a
child's toy isn't necessarily the most important part of the story.
It doesn't explain anything of the kind.
That's right. It doesn't explain, it demonstrates. That's why my
sentence began, "It demonstrates..."
It doesn't demonstrate anything of the kind either. Fool.
Then please can you give an example which does demonstrate it?
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Even the Moff himself doesn't think that Chibnall ignored the brief.
As late as 31 Aug, Moffat's publicity blurb described the episode as,
"halfway between an alien invasion movie and The Man Who Came to
Dinner."
http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2012-08-31/steven-moffats-doctor-who-episode-guide-the-power-of-three
He wouldn't do that if he thought Chibnall had ignored the brief,
would he?
I bet he still hadn't actually read Chibnall's script at the time except for
a fleeting glance.
Not even the Moff would be that unprofessional.
Post by Agamemnon
That might explain why he wasn't asked to do a rewrite,
since it clearly has little influence from The Man Who Came to Dinner.
More likely, Moffat wasn't expecting Chibnall to do a literal
retelling of The Man Who Came To Dinner, but merely to used that as a
starting point for his own imagination.
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
The ordinary life Doctor life debate had nothing to do with the story the
episode was supposed to be telling which was about the alien cubes and
didn't not enhance it in any way.
Maybe it didn't enhance it in your preferred way, but that's not the
same as "in any way". Given that most people thought the ordinary
life/Doctor life stuff was the most enjoyable part of the episode, it
clearly did enhance it in some way.
What people?
Me for a start.

And Ross.

And this person:
http://www.neowhovian.com/reviews/2012/09/the-weakness-of-plot

And most of the people on this thread:
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1737093

And...

Oh, just Google what the blogs and forums are saying. You'll find
lots of people saying it.
Post by Agamemnon
The prancing around for no reason was the best part? Are you
serious?
The Doctor was only prancing around for no reason when his heart was
electrocuted. That was definitely part of the cube storyline. Do pay
attention.
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
However, I was talking about one specific scene. The riverside
conversation where the Doctor explains that he needs somewhere to run
to.
If it wasn't at the heart of that episode's emotional journey for
you, which scene was?
With all the idiotic prancing around since the series came back in 2005 it's
difficult to take most things the Doctor says seriously anymore. That's the
reason why Eccleston left.
I asked a very specific question. Which scene do you think was at the
episode's emotional heart?
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
I don't think many writers would agree with that description of the
job. Can you quote the exact passage in Chibnall's contract which
specifies it?
Obviously this is a deficiency in British writing for TV which doesn't seem
to exist concerning people writing for US TV series.
Can you quote the exact passage in any US TV writer's contact which
says that?
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Doctor Who style means cubes or any other kind of alien influence.
Is it Moffat who thinks "Doctor Who style" means that? Or Chibnall?
And can you give a quote from them to confirm it?
It's irrelevant which of them decided it meant that. That's what it means
It's relevant if _neither_ of them thinks it means that. For example,
the Dr Sandiford at TARDIS Eruditorum has made an interesting argument
that Doctor Who's style is all about breaking down the barriers
between genres, and while introducing a "kind of alien influence" is
one way it does it, it's not the only way.
A kind of what? The prancing around is alien influence?
No, the black cubes are an alien influence. You said so yourself,
remember?
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
And besides, isn't the Doctor himself a "kind of alien influence"?
Stop being idiotic.
Please give me a non-idiotic argument why the Doctor isn't an alien
influence. (e.g. He's the only alien influence in the Hartnell
historicals.)
Prancing around isn't alien.
Look out of your window. How many humans do you see prancing around
right now? ;)

Seriously, why are you repeating the phrase "prancing about" as though
you're being sponsored or something? There was very little actual
prancing in the episode.
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Any
decent script editor would have told Chibnall that there wasn't enough time
in the episode to do that and asked him to develop the main plot instead
or the asides.
I actually agree up to a point. _But_ since most viewers seemed to
prefer the character stuff in this episode, any decent script editor
What? Prancing around to backing music by Murray Gold is character stuff?
At what point in the episode did they prance around to music? Give
the exact timings?
Post by Agamemnon
Since when? Most viewers did not prefer that at all.
Then why are they posting that they did?
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
that was the main story which should be developed,
and the cubes are the asides which should've been downplayed.
Lol... Then it wouldn't have been Doctor Who but some insane 45 minute long
pop video extolling the music of Murray Gold.
What!?! You're clearly taking the actual episode and using it as a
springboard for your own imagination.
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Collections of short stories. They aren't real novels.
The writers and publishers seem to think they're novels. The idea is
that the whole should be more than the sum of the parts, in ways that
traditional short story collections aren't. (It doesn't always work
in practice.)
It's still a collection of short stories.
Have you listened to Big Finish's "Circular Time"? And if so, what
did you make of it?
Which Doctor did that feature?
Fifth.
Agamemnon
2012-09-25 22:52:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
I meant I have not, but since the above line was obviously a mistake,
probably due to my spell checker changing what I actually wrote once again I
will have to concede the point, but only in respect of that particular
sentence.
Not the old spellchecker excuse again!
Have you ever tried disabling your spellcheecker, or upgrading to one
that works properly!?!
Unfortunately Windows 8 just like 7 and Vista is going to be another
downgrade compared to Windows XP, ie. no newsreader, so I'm sticking with XP
I don't blame you. Whenever I have to use Windows, I prefer XP too.
But its spellchecker has never randomly deleted the word "not" from
the middle of my sentences.
Lucky you.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
It demonstrates the the object in the episode which works best as a
child's toy isn't necessarily the most important part of the story.
It doesn't explain anything of the kind.
That's right. It doesn't explain, it demonstrates. That's why my
sentence began, "It demonstrates..."
It doesn't demonstrate anything of the kind either. Fool.
Then please can you give an example which does demonstrate it?
You're asking me to give and example from the episodes which demonstrates
your argument? Fool. There isn't one.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Even the Moff himself doesn't think that Chibnall ignored the brief.
As late as 31 Aug, Moffat's publicity blurb described the episode as,
"halfway between an alien invasion movie and The Man Who Came to
Dinner."
http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2012-08-31/steven-moffats-doctor-who-episode-guide-the-power-of-three
He wouldn't do that if he thought Chibnall had ignored the brief,
would he?
I bet he still hadn't actually read Chibnall's script at the time except for
a fleeting glance.
Not even the Moff would be that unprofessional.
If he'd read the script properly then why are there so many flaws in it left
unfixed?
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
That might explain why he wasn't asked to do a rewrite,
since it clearly has little influence from The Man Who Came to Dinner.
More likely, Moffat wasn't expecting Chibnall to do a literal
retelling of The Man Who Came To Dinner, but merely to used that as a
starting point for his own imagination.
So what is the point of giving Chibnall a brief then.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
The ordinary life Doctor life debate had nothing to do with the story the
episode was supposed to be telling which was about the alien cubes and
didn't not enhance it in any way.
Maybe it didn't enhance it in your preferred way, but that's not the
same as "in any way". Given that most people thought the ordinary
life/Doctor life stuff was the most enjoyable part of the episode, it
clearly did enhance it in some way.
What people?
Me for a start.
You don't count.
Post by solar penguin
And Ross.
So only one person apart from yourself.
Post by solar penguin
http://www.neowhovian.com/reviews/2012/09/the-weakness-of-plot
http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1737093
None of which are posters here so they don't count either.
Post by solar penguin
And...
Oh, just Google what the blogs and forums are saying. You'll find
lots of people saying it.
Post by Agamemnon
The prancing around for no reason was the best part? Are you
serious?
The Doctor was only prancing around for no reason when his heart was
electrocuted. That was definitely part of the cube storyline. Do pay
attention.
Nope. There was the fence painting, the keep em ups, the house party, the
mansion party with the Zygons, and the prancing under Henry VIIIs bed as
well.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
However, I was talking about one specific scene. The riverside
conversation where the Doctor explains that he needs somewhere to run
to.
If it wasn't at the heart of that episode's emotional journey for
you, which scene was?
With all the idiotic prancing around since the series came back in 2005 it's
difficult to take most things the Doctor says seriously anymore. That's the
reason why Eccleston left.
I asked a very specific question. Which scene do you think was at the
episode's emotional heart?
I would say the Doctor remembering the Brigadier with Kate.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
I don't think many writers would agree with that description of the
job. Can you quote the exact passage in Chibnall's contract which
specifies it?
Obviously this is a deficiency in British writing for TV which doesn't seem
to exist concerning people writing for US TV series.
Can you quote the exact passage in any US TV writer's contact which
says that?
Irrelevant. If they didn't do what I said they would never work again as
script writers.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Doctor Who style means cubes or any other kind of alien influence.
Is it Moffat who thinks "Doctor Who style" means that? Or Chibnall?
And can you give a quote from them to confirm it?
It's irrelevant which of them decided it meant that. That's what it means
It's relevant if _neither_ of them thinks it means that. For example,
the Dr Sandiford at TARDIS Eruditorum has made an interesting argument
that Doctor Who's style is all about breaking down the barriers
between genres, and while introducing a "kind of alien influence" is
one way it does it, it's not the only way.
A kind of what? The prancing around is alien influence?
No, the black cubes are an alien influence. You said so yourself,
remember?
So what was all the prancing around for then?
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
And besides, isn't the Doctor himself a "kind of alien influence"?
Stop being idiotic.
Please give me a non-idiotic argument why the Doctor isn't an alien
influence. (e.g. He's the only alien influence in the Hartnell
historicals.)
Prancing around isn't alien.
Look out of your window. How many humans do you see prancing around
right now? ;)
Exactly. So why was the Doctor prancing around then?
Post by solar penguin
Seriously, why are you repeating the phrase "prancing about" as though
you're being sponsored or something? There was very little actual
prancing in the episode.
There was lots.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Any
decent script editor would have told Chibnall that there wasn't enough time
in the episode to do that and asked him to develop the main plot instead
or the asides.
I actually agree up to a point. _But_ since most viewers seemed to
prefer the character stuff in this episode, any decent script editor
What? Prancing around to backing music by Murray Gold is character stuff?
At what point in the episode did they prance around to music? Give
the exact timings?
You can start of with the Doctors fence painting and keep em ups and then
all the other instances I mentioned.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Since when? Most viewers did not prefer that at all.
Then why are they posting that they did?
Only one is apart from you it seems according to your figures.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
that was the main story which should be developed,
and the cubes are the asides which should've been downplayed.
Lol... Then it wouldn't have been Doctor Who but some insane 45 minute long
pop video extolling the music of Murray Gold.
What!?! You're clearly taking the actual episode and using it as a
springboard for your own imagination.
Nope. You are.
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Collections of short stories. They aren't real novels.
The writers and publishers seem to think they're novels. The idea is
that the whole should be more than the sum of the parts, in ways that
traditional short story collections aren't. (It doesn't always work
in practice.)
It's still a collection of short stories.
Have you listened to Big Finish's "Circular Time"? And if so, what
did you make of it?
Which Doctor did that feature?
Fifth.
Not listened to it then.
solar penguin
2012-09-26 09:01:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
It doesn't explain anything of the kind.
That's right. It doesn't explain, it demonstrates. That's why my
sentence began, "It demonstrates..."
It doesn't demonstrate anything of the kind either. Fool.
Then please can you give an example which does demonstrate it?
You're asking me to give and example from the episodes which demonstrates
your argument?
No, not "from the episodes". We weren't actually discussing stuff
"from the episodes" in this part of the post. Remember?
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
I bet he still hadn't actually read Chibnall's script at the time except
for a fleeting glance.
Not even the Moff would be that unprofessional.
If he'd read the script properly then why are there so many flaws in it left
unfixed?
You'd have to ask him that.
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
More likely, Moffat wasn't expecting Chibnall to do a literal
retelling of The Man Who Came To Dinner, but merely to use that as a
starting point for his own imagination.
So what is the point of giving Chibnall a brief then.
To give him a starting point, like I said above. Remember?
Post by Agamemnon
None of which are posters here so they don't count either.
So the only viewers that producers and writers should take into
account are posters here!?!
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
The prancing around for no reason was the best part? Are you
serious?
The Doctor was only prancing around for no reason when his heart was
electrocuted. That was definitely part of the cube storyline. Do pay
attention.
Nope. There was the fence painting, the keep em ups,
Which lasted a minute at most
Post by Agamemnon
the house party,
How many people were prancing there?
Post by Agamemnon
the
mansion party with the Zygons,
How was that prancing?
Post by Agamemnon
and the prancing under Henry VIIIs bed as
well.
They'd hit their heads on the bed if they pranced while under there!
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
I asked a very specific question. Which scene do you think was at the
episode's emotional heart?
I would say the Doctor remembering the Brigadier with Kate.
So the episode was all about the Doctor's relationship with Kate?
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
I don't think many writers would agree with that description of the
job. Can you quote the exact passage in Chibnall's contract which
specifies it?
Obviously this is a deficiency in British writing for TV which doesn't
seem to exist concerning people writing for US TV series.
Can you quote the exact passage in any US TV writer's contact which
says that?
Irrelevant. If they didn't do what I said they would never work again as
script writers.
Any evidence to support this? For example, can you name at least one
writer who was fired for not doing as you said?
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
It's relevant if _neither_ of them thinks it means that. For example,
the Dr Sandiford at TARDIS Eruditorum has made an interesting argument
that Doctor Who's style is all about breaking down the barriers
between genres, and while introducing a "kind of alien influence" is
one way it does it, it's not the only way.
A kind of what? The prancing around is alien influence?
No, the black cubes are an alien influence. You said so yourself,
remember?
So what was all the prancing around for then?
So far, you seem to be the only person who thinks it was prancing
about.
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
At what point in the episode did they prance around to music? Give
the exact timings?
You can start of with the Doctors fence painting and keep em ups and then
all the other instances I mentioned.
Those aren't exact timings.
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Since when? Most viewers did not prefer that at all.
Then why are they posting that they did?
Only one is apart from you it seems according to your figures.
According to your distorted censoring of my figures.

This isn't the only forum in the world, you know. It isn't even the
most important DW forum in the world.

For a more accurate view of viewers in general, you should try a more
general TV forum, like the one on the DigitalSpy site. I posted the
URL earlier in this thread.
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Have you listened to Big Finish's "Circular Time"? And if so, what
did you make of it?
Which Doctor did that feature?
Fifth.
Not listened to it then.
Give it a try. I'd love to know what you make of it. (I'll probably
disagree with your opinion, but I'll still find it very interesting.)
Charles E. Hardwidge
2012-09-25 08:34:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Agamemnon
The ordinary life Doctor life debate had nothing to do with the story the
episode was supposed to be telling which was about the alien cubes and
didn't not enhance it in any way. In fact it did exactly the opposite and
detracted from it by time wasting. It's writing like that which is the
main reason why Doctor Who has never been able to cope with the 45 minute
episode format. The writers don't have a clue of how to write for it and
even of Moffat or the script editors do they're not prepare to ask the
writers to make changes to their scripts to sort the problem out. They're
probably afraid of losing their jobs.
You are a fool. Chibnall is being paid to write for a TV series not for
his own leisure. His job is to write exactly what he's told to write and
to make sure it works in 45 minutes. It's obvious he wasn't doing either
with the above story, and even worse the other writers are just as bad.
They don't have a clue of what they're supposed to do and they don't care
what they are supposed to the writing for.
And the reason it was ridiculous was because Chibnall wasted half the
episode with the characters prancing around doing stuff that had no
connection with the main plot, instead of actually developing it properly.
It didn't even have anything but a feeble connection with even the
parallel story about normal life and Doctor life. It was just prancing
around. Any decent script editor would have told Chibnall that there
wasn't enough time in the episode to do that and asked him to develop the
main plot instead or the asides.
I said in 63 words what you took 290 words to say. Just an observation.

You're both making very good points and given the slack in the Venn diagrams
both as right as each other in the main. The old man desk banging from both
claiming you're right and the other is an idiot is a show of its own.

Serious suggestion:

If the pair of you can take the discussion roughs you could do a webcam
conversation and edit them together as a short show like what Paul Thurrott
and Andrew Zarian do with What the Tech.
--
Charles E. Hardwidge
solar penguin
2012-09-25 13:39:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Agamemnon
You are a fool. Chibnall is being paid to write for a TV series not for his
own leisure. His job is to write exactly what he's told to write and to make
sure it works in 45 minutes.
So you want all DW script meetings to go something like this...

MOFFAT: Welcome to the meeting! As the Dr Who theme fades away, it's
time to write another episode of this series that's enjoyed so much,
not only in this country, but around the world. And who better to
start than Chris Chibnall? Chris, your brief is "The Man Who Came To
Dinner, Doctor Who-style." Write about that for 45 minutes, starting
now.

CHIBNALL: Mysterious black cubes are appearing all over the world,
then the Doctor turns up at Amy and Rory's house and tells them he's
moving in with them --

*BUZZER*

MOFFAT: Challenge from Gareth Roberts.

ROBERTS: Repetition. The Doctor moved in with someone in The Lodger.

MOFFAT: Sorry, that's not strictly repetition according to the
rules. The characters didn't keep getting locked up and escaping
again, or running up and down a lot of corridors. Chris keeps the
subject and gets a point for an incorrect challenge...
Agamemnon
2012-09-25 23:33:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
You are a fool. Chibnall is being paid to write for a TV series not for his
own leisure. His job is to write exactly what he's told to write and to make
sure it works in 45 minutes.
So you want all DW script meetings to go something like this...
MOFFAT: Welcome to the meeting! As the Dr Who theme fades away, it's
time to write another episode of this series that's enjoyed so much,
not only in this country, but around the world. And who better to
start than Chris Chibnall? Chris, your brief is "The Man Who Came To
Dinner, Doctor Who-style." Write about that for 45 minutes, starting
now.
CHIBNALL: Mysterious black cubes are appearing all over the world,
then the Doctor turns up at Amy and Rory's house and tells them he's
moving in with them --
*BUZZER*
MOFFAT: Challenge from Gareth Roberts.
ROBERTS: Repetition. The Doctor moved in with someone in The Lodger.
MOFFAT: Sorry, that's not strictly repetition according to the
rules. The characters didn't keep getting locked up and escaping
again, or running up and down a lot of corridors. Chris keeps the
subject and gets a point for an incorrect challenge...
Even better, Gareth Roberts and Stephen Moffat could actually suggest ways
to improve Chibnall's script.

ROBERTS: There's too much irrelevant prancing around.

MOFFAT: Well spotted, Roberts. Chibnall, cut the prancing around.

CHIBNALL: All of it?

MOFFAT: Yes all of it man. Hop to it.

CHIBNALL: What should I put in its place?

ROBERTS: You could start by developing the ending so that it isn't all
brought to a sudden conclusion by the wave of the Doctor's magic wand?

CHIBNALL: It's not a magic wand Roberts. It's a sonic screwdriver.

MOFFAT: It's lazy writing Chibnall, that's what it is. Do what Roberts
suggests or I'll get Roberts to write it for you man.

Any one else got any more ideas how to improve Chibnall's script?

GAIMAN: I'd like to suggest that soon after the encounter with UNIT, the
Doctor, Amy and Rory are invited to a dinner party hosted by Kate Stewart.
That would provide an excellent opportunity for character development and
keep the story in line with your most excellent brief sir.

MOFFAT: Wonderful idea. Chibnall, you heard the man. What's more the Doctor
doesn't need to go prancing around some idiotic hospital in the middle of
nowhere. The stoppage of one of the Doctors two hearts can be set in Kate's
grace and favour mansion and thus provides a rational explanation as to why
the aliens would choose that particular spot to situate their subspace
gateway, after all it's doubbling up as UNIT HQ.

MOFFAT: Yes Roberts?

ROBERTS: I'd also like to suggest the Doctor's left heart should be brought
back through ordinary CPR. Hardly anyone finds a defibrillator randomly
lying around in a corridor at the exact moment they need to use it in the
real world.

MOFFAT: Have you understood his suggestion Chibnall.

CHIBNALL: Yes sir, affirmative sir.

MOFFAT: Good show!
Charles E. Hardwidge
2012-09-26 00:23:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Agamemnon
Even better, Gareth Roberts and Stephen Moffat could actually suggest ways
to improve Chibnall's script.
You're conflating editing with writing teams.

We still don't have a verbatim copy of the brief nor do we have a copy of
the show's design document.

When you're done being a pair of oxygen thieves...

FU: reset.
--
Charles E. Hardwidge
solar penguin
2012-09-26 09:04:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Agamemnon
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
You are a fool. Chibnall is being paid to write for a TV series not for his
own leisure. His job is to write exactly what he's told to write and to
make sure it works in 45 minutes.
So you want all DW script meetings to go something like this...
MOFFAT: Welcome to the meeting! As the Dr Who theme fades away, it's
time to write another episode of this series that's enjoyed so much,
not only in this country, but around the world. And who better to
start than Chris Chibnall? Chris, your brief is "The Man Who Came To
Dinner, Doctor Who-style." Write about that for 45 minutes, starting
now.
CHIBNALL: Mysterious black cubes are appearing all over the world,
then the Doctor turns up at Amy and Rory's house and tells them he's
moving in with them --
*BUZZER*
MOFFAT: Challenge from Gareth Roberts.
ROBERTS: Repetition. The Doctor moved in with someone in The Lodger.
MOFFAT: Sorry, that's not strictly repetition according to the
rules. The characters didn't keep getting locked up and escaping
again, or running up and down a lot of corridors. Chris keeps the
subject and gets a point for an incorrect challenge...
Even better, Gareth Roberts and Stephen Moffat could actually suggest ways
to improve Chibnall's script.
**WHOOOooosssh!!!**

Shame you didn't take just a minute to think about the point I was
making.
Ross
2012-09-24 03:49:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Agamemnon
but instead the
episode spent too much time concentrating on a completely different story
which had nothing to do with the main plot and which did not enhance it
which was about Amy and Rory choosing between real-life and Doctor-life.
That totally irrelevant story wasted about half the duration of the episode
and is the main reason why Doctor Who has never got to grips with the 45
minute episode format, whereas US series have no problem with it at all,
since they don't go around telling two completely different stories which
don't complement each other.
Close but no cigar.  You're right that the two storylines (I won't say
"two stories" since I don't want to dignify the cubes' subplot with
the label "story") didn't complement each other.
Indeed, it's very strange that Aggy here is somehow completely
ignorant that in US TV, hour-long dramas almost *always* have two
largely separate storylines -- and the most comon split is very
similar to the way this episode is split up: one plot-heavy one and
one character-heavy one. Those shows work best when the two
storylines, though separate, complement each other. Which isn't
happening here.
But the would be better solved by downplaying the cubes' plot, and
giving more emphasis to the Ponds and their relationship with the
Doctor.
Since Chibnall just plain can't do big epic plots, it would be better
if the cubes turned out to be something small-scale, rather than an
epic attempt from aliens outside time to wipe out humanity.  This
would allow Chibnall to write to his strengths, not his weaknesses,
with more time for more relationship scenes.
Worse, by introducing Kate and UNIT, they sort of undercut the whole
point of the story: you've got Kate and UNIT *RIGHT THERE*
demonstrating that you *don't* have to give up living in the real
world to fly off with the doctor in order to save the world from alien
invasions. If Rory and Amy wanted to, they really *could* have it all:
a real-world real-life, AND adventures with aliens and world-saving,
just by having the Doctor provide a reference when they sendtheir
resumes in to UNIT.
I would've liked to have seen the cube finally turn out to be alien
junk mail offering something like used space-pods, or tentacle
extensions.  "You've waited long enough, so don't wait any more.
Apply today at Andromeda 39-beta-alpha-4".
 "But Doctor," asks Amy/Rory/Kate/Brian/whoever, "why did they send
them to Earth?"
"Haven't you ever had spam emails that obviously didn't apply to you?
It's the same principle" says the Doctor.
The obvious downside of my idea is that we wouldn't get to see the
Doctor saving the world from an epic threat.  OTOH the obvious
advantage is that we don't get to see the Doctor's sonic screwdriver
once again saving the world in an way that makes no sense at all, from
yet another epic threat that makes no sense at all.
I think it's also a problem, though not an insurmountable one, that by
having the Doctor and The Ponds save the earth, we get to have right
there to point at "This is why they want to travel with the Doctor:
Because only in the Doctor's world do you get to do things like saving
all of humanity from an immenselyt powerful alien force from beyond
time," and that's missing in your version.

But otherwise, yeah. Something less epic would have made the focus
tighter.
Agamemnon
2012-09-24 04:52:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Agamemnon
but instead the
episode spent too much time concentrating on a completely different story
which had nothing to do with the main plot and which did not enhance it
which was about Amy and Rory choosing between real-life and Doctor-life.
That totally irrelevant story wasted about half the duration of the episode
and is the main reason why Doctor Who has never got to grips with the 45
minute episode format, whereas US series have no problem with it at all,
since they don't go around telling two completely different stories which
don't complement each other.
Close but no cigar. You're right that the two storylines (I won't say
"two stories" since I don't want to dignify the cubes' subplot with
the label "story") didn't complement each other.
<<<Indeed, it's very strange that Aggy here is somehow completely
ignorant that in US TV, hour-long dramas almost *always* have two
largely separate storylines -- and the most comon split is very
similar to the way this episode is split up: one plot-heavy one and
one character-heavy one. Those shows work best when the two
storylines, though separate, complement each other. Which isn't
happening here.>>>

Which is exactly what I said "a completely different story which had nothing
to do with the main plot and which did not enhance it".
But the would be better solved by downplaying the cubes' plot, and
giving more emphasis to the Ponds and their relationship with the
Doctor.
Since Chibnall just plain can't do big epic plots, it would be better
if the cubes turned out to be something small-scale, rather than an
epic attempt from aliens outside time to wipe out humanity. This
would allow Chibnall to write to his strengths, not his weaknesses,
with more time for more relationship scenes.
<<<Worse, by introducing Kate and UNIT, they sort of undercut the whole
point of the story: you've got Kate and UNIT *RIGHT THERE*
demonstrating that you *don't* have to give up living in the real
world to fly off with the doctor in order to save the world from alien
invasions. If Rory and Amy wanted to, they really *could* have it all:
a real-world real-life, AND adventures with aliens and world-saving,
just by having the Doctor provide a reference when they sendtheir
resumes in to UNIT.>>>

But instead of something like Data's Day from ST TNG we were given a whole
load of totally irrelevant larking around in Amy's back garden and the whole
of space and time which totally detracted from everything. The story
Chibnell came up with wasn't even the story he was asked to write in his
brief.

His was his brief, "live with the Doctor - The Man Who Came to Dinner,
Doctor Who style."
I would've liked to have seen the cube finally turn out to be alien
junk mail offering something like used space-pods, or tentacle
extensions. "You've waited long enough, so don't wait any more.
Apply today at Andromeda 39-beta-alpha-4".
"But Doctor," asks Amy/Rory/Kate/Brian/whoever, "why did they send
them to Earth?"
"Haven't you ever had spam emails that obviously didn't apply to you?
It's the same principle" says the Doctor.
The obvious downside of my idea is that we wouldn't get to see the
Doctor saving the world from an epic threat. OTOH the obvious
advantage is that we don't get to see the Doctor's sonic screwdriver
once again saving the world in an way that makes no sense at all, from
yet another epic threat that makes no sense at all.
<<<I think it's also a problem, though not an insurmountable one, that by
having the Doctor and The Ponds save the earth, we get to have right
there to point at "This is why they want to travel with the Doctor:
Because only in the Doctor's world do you get to do things like saving
all of humanity from an immenselyt powerful alien force from beyond
time," and that's missing in your version.>>>

<<<But otherwise, yeah. Something less epic would have made the focus
tighter.>>>

The story Chibnell was asked to write by Moffat wasn't even supposed to
centre around Amy and Rory. It was supposed to centre around the Doctor and
how uncomfortable he was having to live with ordinary people. Chibnell just
brushed over that in 3 minutes with the Doctor painting a fence and doing a
million keep it ups in an hour and then had him take Rory and Amy to a
dinner party hosted by Zygons which was the only other fleeting reference to
what he asked to write about because he totally lost the plot and decided to
write something completely different.
TB
2013-10-07 21:05:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Agamemnon
Post by Agamemnon
but instead the
episode spent too much time concentrating on a completely different
story
which had nothing to do with the main plot and which did not enhance it
which was about Amy and Rory choosing between real-life and Doctor-life.
That totally irrelevant story wasted about half the duration of the
episode
and is the main reason why Doctor Who has never got to grips with the 45
minute episode format, whereas US series have no problem with it at all,
since they don't go around telling two completely different stories
which
don't complement each other.
Close but no cigar. You're right that the two storylines (I won't say
"two stories" since I don't want to dignify the cubes' subplot with
the label "story") didn't complement each other.
<<<Indeed, it's very strange that Aggy here is somehow completely
ignorant that in US TV, hour-long dramas almost *always* have two
largely separate storylines -- and the most comon split is very
similar to the way this episode is split up: one plot-heavy one and
one character-heavy one. Those shows work best when the two
storylines, though separate, complement each other. Which isn't
happening here.>>>
Which is exactly what I said "a completely different story which had nothing
to do with the main plot and which did not enhance it".
But the would be better solved by downplaying the cubes' plot, and
giving more emphasis to the Ponds and their relationship with the
Doctor.
Since Chibnall just plain can't do big epic plots, it would be better
if the cubes turned out to be something small-scale, rather than an
epic attempt from aliens outside time to wipe out humanity. This
would allow Chibnall to write to his strengths, not his weaknesses,
with more time for more relationship scenes.
<<<Worse, by introducing Kate and UNIT, they sort of undercut the whole
point of the story: you've got Kate and UNIT *RIGHT THERE*
demonstrating that you *don't* have to give up living in the real
world to fly off with the doctor in order to save the world from alien
a real-world real-life, AND adventures with aliens and world-saving,
just by having the Doctor provide a reference when they sendtheir
resumes in to UNIT.>>>
But instead of something like Data's Day from ST TNG we were given a whole
load of totally irrelevant larking around in Amy's back garden and the whole
of space and time which totally detracted from everything. The story
Chibnell came up with wasn't even the story he was asked to write in his
brief.
His was his brief, "live with the Doctor - The Man Who Came to Dinner,
Doctor Who style."
I would've liked to have seen the cube finally turn out to be alien
junk mail offering something like used space-pods, or tentacle
extensions. "You've waited long enough, so don't wait any more.
Apply today at Andromeda 39-beta-alpha-4".
"But Doctor," asks Amy/Rory/Kate/Brian/whoever, "why did they send
them to Earth?"
"Haven't you ever had spam emails that obviously didn't apply to you?
It's the same principle" says the Doctor.
The obvious downside of my idea is that we wouldn't get to see the
Doctor saving the world from an epic threat. OTOH the obvious
advantage is that we don't get to see the Doctor's sonic screwdriver
once again saving the world in an way that makes no sense at all, from
yet another epic threat that makes no sense at all.
<<<I think it's also a problem, though not an insurmountable one, that by
having the Doctor and The Ponds save the earth, we get to have right
Because only in the Doctor's world do you get to do things like saving
all of humanity from an immenselyt powerful alien force from beyond
time," and that's missing in your version.>>>
<<<But otherwise, yeah. Something less epic would have made the focus
tighter.>>>
The story Chibnell was asked to write by Moffat wasn't even supposed to
centre around Amy and Rory. It was supposed to centre around the Doctor and
how uncomfortable he was having to live with ordinary people. Chibnell just
brushed over that in 3 minutes with the Doctor painting a fence and doing a
million keep it ups in an hour and then had him take Rory and Amy to a
dinner party hosted by Zygons which was the only other fleeting reference to
what he asked to write about because he totally lost the plot and decided to
write something completely different.
How durable are these cubes? How much heat can they withstand. How much pressure? (I expect that UNIT would have tossed some cubes into Earth's hottest furnaces, and attempted to cut them open with diamond saws and lasers).
solar penguin
2012-09-24 07:05:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by solar penguin
Since Chibnall just plain can't do big epic plots, it would be better
if the cubes turned out to be something small-scale, rather than an
epic attempt from aliens outside time to wipe out humanity.  This
would allow Chibnall to write to his strengths, not his weaknesses,
with more time for more relationship scenes.
Worse, by introducing Kate and UNIT, they sort of undercut the whole
point of the story: you've got Kate and UNIT *RIGHT THERE*
demonstrating that you *don't* have to give up living in the real
world to fly off with the doctor in order to save the world from alien
a real-world real-life, AND adventures with aliens and world-saving,
just by having the Doctor provide a reference when they sendtheir
resumes in to UNIT.
(*SNIP*)
Post by Ross
Post by solar penguin
The obvious downside of my idea is that we wouldn't get to see the
Doctor saving the world from an epic threat.  OTOH the obvious
advantage is that we don't get to see the Doctor's sonic screwdriver
once again saving the world in an way that makes no sense at all, from
yet another epic threat that makes no sense at all.
I think it's also a problem, though not an insurmountable one, that by
having the Doctor and The Ponds save the earth, we get to have right
Because only in the Doctor's world do you get to do things like saving
all of humanity from an immenselyt powerful alien force from beyond
time," and that's missing in your version.
Interesting points. I don't see these as a problem, since I'm the
sort of person who doesn't feel comfortable pigeonholing things. I'd
rather explore the hidden connections and similarities between them,
rather than split them up.

So, given the "real life vs. Doctor life" dilemma, I want to see "real
life" look more Doctor-y (which Kate, UNIT and the cubes are already
doing) and "Doctor life" look more mundane (by having the Doctor
involved with something that isn't a serious threat after all). Maybe
the box-like cubes themselves could've been used as a visual metaphor
for why dividing everything up into boxes can be a bad idea.

I realise that this is totally the opposite direction that Chibnall
and the Moff are interested in exploring. But as far as I'm
concerned, they're going in the wrong direction anyway.
An tSin Gorm
2012-09-28 07:43:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
The story was supposed to be about these alien
cubes that were invading Earth and what was behind them
Was it? That seems to be a minority opinion, judging by most of the
comments posted here and on other forums.
The Slow Invasion wasn't the cubes, but the Doctor invading the Ponds's lounge
and slowly learning how to live at the pace of a human and how that differs from
him always running around, skipping all the boring parts. (Also mentionned in
the van Gogh episode.)
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You flamed my father. \' At least I can stay in character.
Prepare to be spanked. // When you look into the void,
Stop posting that! `/ the void looks into you, and fulfills you.
Agamemnon
2012-09-28 13:44:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In article
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
The story was supposed to be about these alien
cubes that were invading Earth and what was behind them
Was it? That seems to be a minority opinion, judging by most of the
comments posted here and on other forums.
The Slow Invasion wasn't the cubes, but the Doctor invading the Ponds's lounge
and slowly learning how to live at the pace of a human and how that differs from
him always running around, skipping all the boring parts. (Also mentionned in
the van Gogh episode.)
Yer right... The Doctor spent all of about 2 minutes in Amy and Rory's
living room before he decided to prance around painting the fence and doing
2 million keep em ups and then shot of in the TARDIS for some more prancing
around.

Call that character development? I think not.
Tim Bruening
2017-01-09 05:01:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
<<<It was definately a weakness to shoehorn Kate into a story that's
supposed to be tightly focused on the relationship between The Doctor,
Rory and Amy. Hopefully Kate will become a recurring character and
she'll get the focus she deserves over time.>>>
Nope. The problem was exactly the opposite. The story was supposed to be
focusing to the cubes that were invading Earth and what was behind them and
No, you're getting confused between "plot" and "story" again. You
keep doing that.
The plot was about the alien cubes invading Earth, but the story was
about how Amy and Rory chose between real-life and Doctor-life.
But then in the very next episode, Rory and Amy are both FORCED to end their Doctor-life by a Weeping Angel sending them to the past!
The Doctor
2017-01-09 15:14:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tim Bruening
Post by solar penguin
Post by Agamemnon
<<<It was definately a weakness to shoehorn Kate into a story that's
supposed to be tightly focused on the relationship between The Doctor,
Rory and Amy. Hopefully Kate will become a recurring character and
she'll get the focus she deserves over time.>>>
Nope. The problem was exactly the opposite. The story was supposed to be
focusing to the cubes that were invading Earth and what was behind them and
No, you're getting confused between "plot" and "story" again. You
keep doing that.
The plot was about the alien cubes invading Earth, but the story was
about how Amy and Rory chose between real-life and Doctor-life.
But then in the very next episode, Rory and Amy are both FORCED to end
their Doctor-life by a Weeping Angel sending them to the past!
Beware the Angels.
--
Member - Liberal International This is doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca Ici doctor@@nl2k.ab.ca
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Birthdate 29 Jan 1969 Redhill Surrey England
Tim Bruening
2017-01-10 04:37:39 UTC
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I: The Doctor must stop a rogue drone from destroying London.

II: The Doctor finds himself in the body OF a drone!

III: On a colony world, a previously unknown life form wages war against the colony by hijacking the colony's machinery. The Doctor must contact that life form and negotiate a peace pact.
The Doctor
2017-01-10 16:17:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tim Bruening
I: The Doctor must stop a rogue drone from destroying London.
II: The Doctor finds himself in the body OF a drone!
III: On a colony world, a previously unknown life form wages war against
the colony by hijacking the colony's machinery. The Doctor must contact
that life form and negotiate a peace pact.
You are junking up the group with obsession posts.
--
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God,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
http://www.fullyfollow.me/rootnl2k Look at Psalms 14 and 53 on Atheism
Birthdate 29 Jan 1969 Redhill Surrey England
Tim Bruening
2017-01-10 20:05:22 UTC
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Post by The Doctor
Post by Tim Bruening
I: The Doctor must stop a rogue drone from destroying London.
II: The Doctor finds himself in the body OF a drone!
III: On a colony world, a previously unknown life form wages war against
the colony by hijacking the colony's machinery. The Doctor must contact
that life form and negotiate a peace pact.
You are junking up the group with obsession posts.
No, merely proposing Doctor Who plots. I and III do appear semi-plausible to me?
The Doctor
2012-09-22 21:47:12 UTC
Reply
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Post by Agamemnon
Good story. Good performances. Much better than last week.
Still problems with the 45 minute format, mainly due to all the stupid
prancing around at the start of the episode (the monologue and painting the
fence etc.) taking all the time which could have been used to much better
effect by extending the story and developing it in different directions. If
they had one and half hours to fill then it might have been ok, but the time
is not being used wisely. They don't do it like that in US dramas.
Once again everything is brought to an end in a few seconds with a flick of
the Doctor's sonic screwdriver instead of a more considered solution.
Nevertheless this story and the whole of this series so far has been more
reminiscent of classic Doctor Who than any other series since 2005.
Homage to the TVM with the Doctor warning Amy to stay away from his hearts
but lots of time wasted on unnecessary prancing as a result of one of the
Doctors heart's stopping.
I wonder if we're going to be seeing more of the Brigadier's daughter in
future stories?
Oh, and did those flashing lights in the sky last night bring any small
black cubes with them?
10/10
Catch me later.
--
Member - Liberal International This is ***@nl2k.ab.ca Ici ***@nl2k.ab.ca
God,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
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Fett
2012-09-24 02:49:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Agamemnon
Good story. Good performances. Much better than last week.
Still problems with the 45 minute format, mainly due to all the stupid
prancing around at the start of the episode (the monologue and painting the
fence etc.) taking all the time which could have been used to much better
effect by extending the story and developing it in different directions. If
they had one and half hours to fill then it might have been ok, but the time
is not being used wisely. They don't do it like that in US dramas.
Once again everything is brought to an end in a few seconds with a flick of
the Doctor's sonic screwdriver instead of a more considered solution.
Nevertheless this story and the whole of this series so far has been more
reminiscent of classic Doctor Who than any other series since 2005.
Homage to the TVM with the Doctor warning Amy to stay away from his hearts
but lots of time wasted on unnecessary prancing as a result of one of the
Doctors heart's stopping.
I wonder if we're going to be seeing more of the Brigadier's daughter in
future stories?
Oh, and did those flashing lights in the sky last night bring any small
black cubes with them?
To me, it dragged on for 30 minutes too long. Lot of boring moments. Not much really happened. This race is a supposed ancient and advanced race and need to use these cubes (which are apparently incredible advanced) to study humanity for 9 months just to determine that humans have hearts?? Uh......what?? And you're telling me that people would take these things that appeared from nowhere and start bringing them in their homes? 1) they're creepy things probably from space. 2) they're boring black cubes. Can't see that happening. Why wouldn't this advanced race just send a plague down to the Earth or something? Bam, could be done with everything in a week or two. Seems like Moffat or something just came up with the basic premise of "what would happen if black cubes just started appearing all over the planet" and then tried to write a story around it.
solar penguin
2012-09-24 04:20:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Fett
This race is a supposed ancient and advanced race and need to use
these cubes (which are apparently incredible advanced) to study
humanity for 9 months just to determine that humans have hearts??
Uh......what??
No, that was explained in the episode. They only studied us for about
an hour to determine that we have hearts. The rest of the time, the
cubes were just lying dormant to lull us into a false sense of
security.
powrwrap
2012-09-24 18:37:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by solar penguin
Post by Fett
This race is a supposed ancient and advanced race and need to use
these cubes (which are apparently incredible advanced) to study
humanity for 9 months just to determine that humans have hearts??
Uh......what??
No, that was explained in the episode. They only studied us for about
an hour to determine that we have hearts. The rest of the time, the
cubes were just lying dormant to lull us into a false sense of
security.
If the cubes purpose was to induce cardiac arrest on a mass scale, what is the point in lulling people into complacency? Is there a way to make cardiac arrest less startling?

I agree with Fett. It seemed the germ of the idea of the story was to have millions of cubes show up unexplained, then try to build a story around it. I would have liked some more exposition of scientists attempting to crack open a cube or otherwise analyze it and less of Brian taking pictures and notes on a daily basis. Wrapping up the story with a wave of the sonic screwdriver was a lazy way out of the predicament. I also didn't like the Doctor's rather carefree reaction to a heart attack.

7/10.
Ross
2012-09-24 19:06:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by powrwrap
Post by Fett
This race is a supposed ancient and advanced race and need to use
these cubes (which are apparently incredible advanced) to study
humanity for 9 months just to determine that humans have hearts??
Uh......what??
No, that was explained in the episode.  They only studied us for about
an hour to determine that we have hearts.  The rest of the time, the
cubes were just lying dormant to lull us into a false sense of
security.
If the cubes purpose was to induce cardiac arrest on a mass scale, what is the point in lulling people into complacency? Is there a way to make cardiac arrest less startling?
Each cube can only affect one human, and the human has to be close to
the cube. If the cubes had shown up suddenly and immediately scared
everyone with their analysis cycle, they'd have gathered up the cubes
and dumped them in a big pit somewhere. By waiting a whole year,
people have taken them into their homes, have them all over the place,
and are so used to the cubes being around that even when they start
counting down, they're so used to the idea of the cubes being "safe"
that they don't panic.
Mike Hall
2012-09-24 22:31:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross
Each cube can only affect one human, and the human has to be close to
the cube. If the cubes had shown up suddenly and immediately scared
everyone with their analysis cycle, they'd have gathered up the cubes
and dumped them in a big pit somewhere. By waiting a whole year,
people have taken them into their homes, have them all over the place,
and are so used to the cubes being around that even when they start
counting down, they're so used to the idea of the cubes being "safe"
that they don't panic.
I.e. These are Trojan cubes. I don't think it was emphasised enough how
cool those cubes looked. Alan Sugar's Apprentice was a front for global
genocide in this programme. Is this normally the case?


Mike Hall
Ross
2012-09-25 01:05:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I.e. These are Trojan cubes.  I don't think it was emphasised enough how
cool those cubes looked.  Alan Sugar's Apprentice was a front for global
genocide in this programme.  Is this normally the case?
If not, that would be the major difference from the Donald Trump
version.
Mike Hall
2012-09-25 11:11:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Mike Hall
I.e. These are Trojan cubes. I don't think it was emphasised enough how
cool those cubes looked. Alan Sugar's Apprentice was a front for global
genocide in this programme. Is this normally the case?
If not, that would be the major difference from the Donald Trump
version.
Umm.. so Donald Trump's version is a front or is not a front? Don't
reply "Yes" or I'll know that you are in on it!

I wonder why they don't have the occasional American celebrity doing a
guest spot. It would boost overseas ratings massively if say Blieber
was shown to be one of The Master's early regenerations.


Mike Hall
Agamemnon
2012-09-25 12:54:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Mike Hall
I.e. These are Trojan cubes. I don't think it was emphasised enough how
cool those cubes looked. Alan Sugar's Apprentice was a front for global
genocide in this programme. Is this normally the case?
If not, that would be the major difference from the Donald Trump
version.
Umm.. so Donald Trump's version is a front or is not a front? Don't reply
"Yes" or I'll know that you are in on it!
I wonder why they don't have the occasional American celebrity doing a
guest spot. It would boost overseas ratings massively if say Blieber
You mean Justin Bieber or someone else?
was shown to be one of The Master's early regenerations.
Mike Hall
Mike Hall
2012-09-25 13:14:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Agamemnon
Post by Mike Hall
I wonder why they don't have the occasional American celebrity doing a
guest spot. It would boost overseas ratings massively if say Blieber
You mean Justin Bieber or someone else?
Post by Mike Hall
was shown to be one of The Master's early regenerations.
Bieber. I did mention that he was supposed to be an evil Timelord -
that restricts the options.


Mike Hall
The Doctor
2012-09-25 14:19:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mike Hall
Post by Agamemnon
Post by Mike Hall
I wonder why they don't have the occasional American celebrity doing a
guest spot. It would boost overseas ratings massively if say Blieber
You mean Justin Bieber or someone else?
Post by Mike Hall
was shown to be one of The Master's early regenerations.
Bieber. I did mention that he was supposed to be an evil Timelord -
that restricts the options.
Mike Hall
Bieber is not DW material.
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The Doctor
2012-09-25 14:13:59 UTC
Reply
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Post by Ross
I.e. These are Trojan cubes. =A0I don't think it was emphasised enough ho=
w
cool those cubes looked. =A0Alan Sugar's Apprentice was a front for globa=
l
genocide in this programme. =A0Is this normally the case?
If not, that would be the major difference from the Donald Trump
version.
Sr or jr ?
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Agamemnon
2012-09-24 23:18:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by powrwrap
Post by Fett
This race is a supposed ancient and advanced race and need to use
these cubes (which are apparently incredible advanced) to study
humanity for 9 months just to determine that humans have hearts??
Uh......what??
No, that was explained in the episode. They only studied us for about
an hour to determine that we have hearts. The rest of the time, the
cubes were just lying dormant to lull us into a false sense of
security.
If the cubes purpose was to induce cardiac arrest on a mass scale, what is
the point in lulling people into complacency? Is there a way to make
cardiac arrest less startling?
<<<Each cube can only affect one human, and the human has to be close to
the cube. If the cubes had shown up suddenly and immediately scared
everyone with their analysis cycle, they'd have gathered up the cubes
and dumped them in a big pit somewhere. By waiting a whole year,
people have taken them into their homes, have them all over the place,
and are so used to the cubes being around that even when they start
counting down, they're so used to the idea of the cubes being "safe"
that they don't panic.>>>

So why wasn't any of that explained in the story instead of wasting half of
it with the Doctor, Amy and Rory prancing around?

What's the job of the script editors and why aren't they doing it or being
allowed to do it and the people posting here seem to be able to do it
better?
Ross
2012-09-25 01:18:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Agamemnon
Post by powrwrap
Post by Fett
This race is a supposed ancient and advanced race and need to use
these cubes (which are apparently incredible advanced) to study
humanity for 9 months just to determine that humans have hearts??
Uh......what??
No, that was explained in the episode. They only studied us for about
an hour to determine that we have hearts. The rest of the time, the
cubes were just lying dormant to lull us into a false sense of
security.
If the cubes purpose was to induce cardiac arrest on a mass scale, what is
the point in lulling people into complacency? Is there a way to make
cardiac arrest less startling?
<<<Each cube can only affect one human, and the human has to be close to
the cube. If the cubes had shown up suddenly and immediately scared
everyone with their analysis cycle, they'd have gathered up the cubes
and dumped them in a big pit somewhere. By waiting a whole year,
people have taken them into their homes, have them all over the place,
and are so used to the cubes being around that even when they start
counting down, they're so used to the idea of the cubes being "safe"
that they don't panic.>>>
So why wasn't any of that explained in the story instead of wasting half of
it with the Doctor, Amy and Rory prancing around?
You need to listen. It involves using your ears to hear what is being
said, rather than your ego to invent things.

(Emphasis mine)

12 minutes 5 seconds: So, the UN classified the cubes as provisionally
safe, whatever that means, and ... the cubes, well they're just...
here. Still. What's it been, nine months? _People are just taking them
for granted_

25 minutes 6 seconds: Because they're clever. Allow people enough time
to collect them, take them into their homes, _their lives_. Humans:
the great early adopters.

30 minutes 3 seconds: "They're signal boxes. People leaning in, then
WHAM! Pure electrical surge targeted at _the nearest human heart_."
solar penguin
2012-09-25 08:05:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Agamemnon
So why wasn't any of that explained in the story instead of wasting half of
it with the Doctor, Amy and Rory prancing around?
You need to listen. It involves using your ears to hear what is being
said, rather than your ego to invent things.
Do you really expect Aggy to break the habit of a lifetime?
Agamemnon
2012-09-25 12:31:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ross
Post by Agamemnon
So why wasn't any of that explained in the story instead of wasting half of
it with the Doctor, Amy and Rory prancing around?
You need to listen. It involves using your ears to hear what is being
said, rather than your ego to invent things.
<<<Do you really expect Aggy to break the habit of a lifetime?>>>

Imbecile.
The Doctor
2012-09-25 14:16:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by solar penguin
Post by Ross
So why wasn't any of that explained in the story instead of wasting hal=
f of
Post by Ross
it with the Doctor, Amy and Rory prancing around?
You need to listen. It involves using your ears to hear what is being
said, rather than your ego to invent things.
Do you really expect Aggy to break the habit of a lifetime?
No flamimg allowed.
--
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Agamemnon
2012-09-25 12:31:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Agamemnon
Post by powrwrap
Post by Fett
This race is a supposed ancient and advanced race and need to use
these cubes (which are apparently incredible advanced) to study
humanity for 9 months just to determine that humans have hearts??
Uh......what??
No, that was explained in the episode. They only studied us for about
an hour to determine that we have hearts. The rest of the time, the
cubes were just lying dormant to lull us into a false sense of
security.
If the cubes purpose was to induce cardiac arrest on a mass scale, what is
the point in lulling people into complacency? Is there a way to make
cardiac arrest less startling?
<<<Each cube can only affect one human, and the human has to be close to
the cube. If the cubes had shown up suddenly and immediately scared
everyone with their analysis cycle, they'd have gathered up the cubes
and dumped them in a big pit somewhere. By waiting a whole year,
people have taken them into their homes, have them all over the place,
and are so used to the cubes being around that even when they start
counting down, they're so used to the idea of the cubes being "safe"
that they don't panic.>>>
So why wasn't any of that explained in the story instead of wasting half of
it with the Doctor, Amy and Rory prancing around?
<<<You need to listen. It involves using your ears to hear what is being
said, rather than your ego to invent things.

(Emphasis mine)

12 minutes 5 seconds: So, the UN classified the cubes as provisionally
safe, whatever that means, and ... the cubes, well they're just...
here. Still. What's it been, nine months? _People are just taking them
for granted_

25 minutes 6 seconds: Because they're clever. Allow people enough time
to collect them, take them into their homes, _their lives_. Humans:
the great early adopters.

30 minutes 3 seconds: "They're signal boxes. People leaning in, then
WHAM! Pure electrical surge targeted at _the nearest human heart_.">>>

That's not an explanation. Its an assumption and worse than that it was made
after the boxes started killing people. Why wasn't the presence of the cubes
challenged and different theories including that one subjected to rigorous
scientific tests? That would have made a far better story than the three
main characters prancing around for half the episodes and not advancing the
plot.

Everyone took the cubes in within the first week because that's when they
appeared. That's all that people needed to get used to them and the cubes
could have killed them there and also it would have given no time for the UN
to get organised. What's the reason why that didn't happen?
The Doctor
2012-09-24 23:20:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by solar penguin
=20
=20
=20
=20
Post by Fett
This race is a supposed ancient and advanced race and need to use
=20
Post by Fett
these cubes (which are apparently incredible advanced) to study
=20
Post by Fett
humanity for 9 months just to determine that humans have hearts??
=20
Post by Fett
Uh......what??
=20
=20
=20
No, that was explained in the episode. They only studied us for about
=20
an hour to determine that we have hearts. The rest of the time, the
=20
cubes were just lying dormant to lull us into a false sense of
=20
security.
If the cubes purpose was to induce cardiac arrest on a mass scale, what is =
the point in lulling people into complacency? Is there a way to make cardia=
c arrest less startling?
I agree with Fett. It seemed the germ of the idea of the story was to have =
millions of cubes show up unexplained, then try to build a story around it.=
I would have liked some more exposition of scientists attempting to crack =
open a cube or otherwise analyze it and less of Brian taking pictures and n=
otes on a daily basis. Wrapping up the story with a wave of the sonic screw=
driver was a lazy way out of the predicament. I also didn't like the Doctor=
's rather carefree reaction to a heart attack.
7/10.
6,7,9,10 . So far the average is 8/10 .
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TB
2013-10-07 21:02:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by solar penguin
Post by Fett
This race is a supposed ancient and advanced race and need to use
these cubes (which are apparently incredible advanced) to study
humanity for 9 months just to determine that humans have hearts??
Uh......what??
No, that was explained in the episode. They only studied us for about
an hour to determine that we have hearts. The rest of the time, the
cubes were just lying dormant to lull us into a false sense of
security.
The cubes lay around inert for a very long time before actively scanning us for 47 minutes.
Tim Bruening
2017-01-09 05:07:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by solar penguin
Post by Fett
This race is a supposed ancient and advanced race and need to use
these cubes (which are apparently incredible advanced) to study
humanity for 9 months just to determine that humans have hearts??
Uh......what??
No, that was explained in the episode. They only studied us for about
an hour to determine that we have hearts. The rest of the time, the
cubes were just lying dormant to lull us into a false sense of
security.
It seems to me that the cubes were being taken for granted in much less than 9 months, so the aliens need not have waited that long!
The Doctor
2017-01-09 15:15:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tim Bruening
Post by solar penguin
Post by Fett
This race is a supposed ancient and advanced race and need to use
these cubes (which are apparently incredible advanced) to study
humanity for 9 months just to determine that humans have hearts??
Uh......what??
No, that was explained in the episode. They only studied us for about
an hour to determine that we have hearts. The rest of the time, the
cubes were just lying dormant to lull us into a false sense of
security.
It seems to me that the cubes were being taken for granted in much less
than 9 months, so the aliens need not have waited that long!
Patient attack.
--
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Birthdate 29 Jan 1969 Redhill Surrey England
Tim Bruening
2017-01-10 04:38:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Doctor
Post by Tim Bruening
Post by solar penguin
Post by Fett
This race is a supposed ancient and advanced race and need to use
these cubes (which are apparently incredible advanced) to study
humanity for 9 months just to determine that humans have hearts??
Uh......what??
No, that was explained in the episode. They only studied us for about
an hour to determine that we have hearts. The rest of the time, the
cubes were just lying dormant to lull us into a false sense of
security.
It seems to me that the cubes were being taken for granted in much less
than 9 months, so the aliens need not have waited that long!
Patient attack.
The patients attack the doctors?
The Doctor
2017-01-10 16:17:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tim Bruening
Post by The Doctor
Post by Tim Bruening
Post by solar penguin
Post by Fett
This race is a supposed ancient and advanced race and need to use
these cubes (which are apparently incredible advanced) to study
humanity for 9 months just to determine that humans have hearts??
Uh......what??
No, that was explained in the episode. They only studied us for about
an hour to determine that we have hearts. The rest of the time, the
cubes were just lying dormant to lull us into a false sense of
security.
It seems to me that the cubes were being taken for granted in much less
than 9 months, so the aliens need not have waited that long!
Patient attack.
The patients attack the doctors?
No.
--
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God,Queen and country!Never Satan President Republic!Beware AntiChrist rising!
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Birthdate 29 Jan 1969 Redhill Surrey England
An tSin Gorm
2012-09-28 07:29:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Fett
To me, it dragged on for 30 minutes too long. Lot of boring moments. Not much
really happened. This race is a supposed ancient and advanced race and need
to use these cubes (which are
That was the point. The cubes, the invasion, the Shakira were just plot devices.
The story was about exploring how the Doctor and humans deal with rainy Saturday
afternoons. ('Humans. They want to live forever but they don't know what to do
on a rainy Saturday afternoon.')
--
My name Indigo Montoya. \\ Annoying Usenet one post at a time.
You flamed my father. \' At least I can stay in character.
Prepare to be spanked. // When you look into the void,
Stop posting that! `/ the void looks into you, and fulfills you.
Agamemnon
2012-09-28 13:42:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by An tSin Gorm
Post by Fett
To me, it dragged on for 30 minutes too long. Lot of boring moments. Not much
really happened. This race is a supposed ancient and advanced race and need
to use these cubes (which are
That was the point. The cubes, the invasion, the Shakira were just plot devices.
The story was about exploring how the Doctor and humans deal with rainy Saturday
afternoons. ('Humans. They want to live forever but they don't know what to do
on a rainy Saturday afternoon.')
Except it wasn't about any such thing. All the time which could have been
spend on plot and character development was wasted on idiotic pointless
irrelevant prancing around.
powrwrap
2012-09-28 14:36:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by An tSin Gorm
That was the point. The cubes, the invasion, the Shakira were just plot devices.
The story was about exploring how the Doctor and humans deal with rainy Saturday afternoons.
And as we all know that makes for some real compelling drama.
An tSin Gorm
2012-09-28 15:12:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by powrwrap
Post by An tSin Gorm
That was the point. The cubes, the invasion, the Shakira were just plot devices.
The story was about exploring how the Doctor and humans deal with rainy
Saturday afternoons.
And as we all know that makes for some real compelling drama.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Exit_(1962_film)
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My name Indigo Montoya. \\ Annoying Usenet one post at a time.
You flamed my father. \' At least I can stay in character.
Prepare to be spanked. // When you look into the void,
Stop posting that! `/ the void looks into you, and fulfills you.
The Doctor
2012-09-28 20:36:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by powrwrap
Post by An tSin Gorm
That was the point. The cubes, the invasion, the Shakira were just plot devices.
The story was about exploring how the Doctor and humans deal with rainy Saturday afternoons.
And as we all know that makes for some real compelling drama.
Sharika? I thought it was the Shakrey?
--
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chrishoelscher
2012-09-24 23:31:44 UTC
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Permalink
if the purpose of the Shalri was to destroy HUMANITY - why wasnt the Doctor's cube smart emough to realize he WASNT human ???

thanks

chris hoelscher
The Doctor
2012-09-24 23:34:23 UTC
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Post by chrishoelscher
if the purpose of the Shalri was to destroy HUMANITY - why wasnt the Doctor's cube smart emough to realize he WASNT human ???
thanks
chris hoelscher
Shakrey IIRC.
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solar penguin
2012-09-25 08:07:59 UTC
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Post by The Doctor
Shakrey IIRC.
--
You recall wrongly. It was Shakri, according to the closing credits.
The Doctor
2012-09-25 14:16:18 UTC
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Post by solar penguin
Post by The Doctor
Shakrey IIRC.
--
You recall wrongly. It was Shakri, according to the closing credits.
Touche SP.
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solar penguin
2012-09-25 06:46:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by chrishoelscher
if the purpose of the Shalri was to destroy HUMANITY - why
wasnt the Doctor's cube smart emough to realize he WASNT
human ???
He's half-human on his mother's side. ;)
The Doctor
2012-09-25 14:14:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by solar penguin
Post by chrishoelscher
if the purpose of the Shalri was to destroy HUMANITY - why
wasnt the Doctor's cube smart emough to realize he WASNT
human ???
He's half-human on his mother's side. ;)
Eight doctor quoted.
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TB
2014-12-06 00:07:08 UTC
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Post by Agamemnon
Homage to the TVM with the Doctor warning Amy to stay away from his hearts
but lots of time wasted on unnecessary prancing as a result of one of the
Doctors heart's stopping.
Could the Doctor have used his sonic screwdriver to restart his heart?
Your Name
2014-12-06 01:45:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by TB
Post by Agamemnon
Homage to the TVM with the Doctor warning Amy to stay away from his hearts
but lots of time wasted on unnecessary prancing as a result of one of the
Doctors heart's stopping.
Could the Doctor have used his sonic screwdriver to restart his heart?
His heart isn't mechanical or technological, so the sonic screwdriver
won't work on it.
TB
2014-12-06 06:32:46 UTC
Reply
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Post by Your Name
Post by TB
Post by Agamemnon
Homage to the TVM with the Doctor warning Amy to stay away from his hearts
but lots of time wasted on unnecessary prancing as a result of one of the
Doctors heart's stopping.
Could the Doctor have used his sonic screwdriver to restart his heart?
His heart isn't mechanical or technological, so the sonic screwdriver
won't work on it.
I was thinking in terms of the screwdriver sendingout the same type of electrical field the defib uses.
The Doctor
2014-12-06 14:23:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by TB
Post by Your Name
Post by TB
Post by Agamemnon
Homage to the TVM with the Doctor warning Amy to stay away from his hearts
but lots of time wasted on unnecessary prancing as a result of one of the
Doctors heart's stopping.
Could the Doctor have used his sonic screwdriver to restart his heart?
His heart isn't mechanical or technological, so the sonic screwdriver
won't work on it.
I was thinking in terms of the screwdriver sendingout the same type of electrical field the defib uses.
I doubt Amy could adjust.
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TB
2014-12-07 02:43:41 UTC
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Post by The Doctor
Post by TB
Post by Your Name
Post by TB
Post by Agamemnon
Homage to the TVM with the Doctor warning Amy to stay away from his hearts
but lots of time wasted on unnecessary prancing as a result of one of the
Doctors heart's stopping.
Could the Doctor have used his sonic screwdriver to restart his heart?
His heart isn't mechanical or technological, so the sonic screwdriver
won't work on it.
I was thinking in terms of the screwdriver sendingout the same type of electrical field the defib uses.
I doubt Amy could adjust.
The Doctor was still ambulatory for much of the time his heart was stopped. I figured that HE could have aimed the sonic screwdriver at his heart!
Tim Bruening
2017-01-09 04:45:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Agamemnon
Good story. Good performances. Much better than last week.
Still problems with the 45 minute format, mainly due to all the stupid
prancing around at the start of the episode (the monologue and painting the
fence etc.) taking all the time which could have been used to much better
effect by extending the story and developing it in different directions.
What different directions would you have sent the sinister cubes?
Post by Agamemnon
Once again everything is brought to an end in a few seconds with a flick of
the Doctor's sonic screwdriver instead of a more considered solution.
How would you have solved the cube induced heart attack problem?
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